tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post1519579860139916936..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Missouri River Flips!John Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-85820627346357364132009-05-21T18:50:35.354-07:002009-05-21T18:50:35.354-07:00Arthur,
I don't know about whom I've made similar...Arthur,<br /><br />I don't know about whom I've made similar comments. Care to remind me?<br /><br />"The problem is a lot of people really like what this guy says."<br /><br />They also liked what Ted Haggard used to say.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-9388834377080097102009-05-21T14:52:15.548-07:002009-05-21T14:52:15.548-07:00Jodie,
I've seen you write similar things about o...Jodie,<br /><br />I've seen you write similar things about other people in the past, and truth be told, I've given it very little appreciation. This time though, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The problem is a lot of people really like what this guy says. What really burns me about his latest nonsense is the total lack of documentation. That's pretty low even for him.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13702889885321249239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-3278965490817947592009-05-21T14:32:13.979-07:002009-05-21T14:32:13.979-07:00Yes, but Gagnon is clearly a mental case.
I would...Yes, but Gagnon is clearly a mental case.<br /><br />I would not be surprised to find out he has an addiction to male prostitutes. He so fits the profile.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-52056208855815530522009-05-21T14:17:42.320-07:002009-05-21T14:17:42.320-07:00@John
"The exception is when ideology is so stron...@John<br /><br />"The exception is when ideology is so strong. Fundamentalist clergy hate gay people so much that familiarity is not a factor."<br /><br />I spent most of the day today convinced in my own mind that my faith wouldn't allow me to be as cynical as you appear to be in the above statement.<br /><br />Then I read this screed: http://www.robgagnon.net/ArticlesOnline.htm<br /><br />It ruined my whole day!Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13702889885321249239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-65621191517082512652009-05-21T07:29:57.175-07:002009-05-21T07:29:57.175-07:00@Alan
"Notice, by the way, that if Arthur's numbe...@Alan<br /><br />"Notice, by the way, that if Arthur's numbers are correct and the "Yes" vote this year represented 51.5% of Presbyterians, but only 49% of the votes cast, that the vote is skewed in favor of the far right..."<br /><br />I think we need to be careful what we try to conclude here. It has been my opinion that our Sessions don't constitute a valid random sampling of our congregations (they aren't really intended to be), and we only send a small sub-set of them to vote at Presbytery. I think the skewness you observed may itself be somewhat random. So 51.5% or 49%? I think the confidence bands are so large (relative to your hypothesis) that you can't really distinguish, and I mean neither the fundies or the progressives.<br /><br />@John<br /><br />"I think regardless whether people are clergy or laity, familiarity generally leads to acceptance."<br /><br />I agree, but I was asking if you thought Clergy might be more motivated to engage with people whom they might otherwise be motivated to avoid if they weren't Clergy.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13702889885321249239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-43853410031073499062009-05-21T07:15:47.096-07:002009-05-21T07:15:47.096-07:00Arthur,
I think regardless whether people are cle...Arthur,<br /><br />I think regardless whether people are clergy or laity, familiarity generally leads to acceptance.<br /><br />The exception is when ideology is so strong. Fundamentalist clergy hate gay people so much that familiarity is not a factor. <br /><br />Most normal decent people have the ability to have their consciences raised. But when ideology is too strong (fueled by religiously-endorsed bigotry) then even parents reject their own children (with whom they are certainly familiar). <br /><br />This is what we see within the right wing of the church.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-35750193315126869952009-05-21T06:20:13.214-07:002009-05-21T06:20:13.214-07:00"I tend to think so too, but I haven't seen any da..."I tend to think so too, but I haven't seen any data in support or against that. It may be out there, I just haven't seen it."<br /><br />There is a new poll examining mainline Protestant clergy and their support for LGBT rights that shows support for either civil unions or marriage at over 60% (~30% support marriage, ~30% support civil unions. The number who support marriage is something like 30%, I think, which is less than the population at large, however, if asked if they'd support marriage if they don't have to conduct the ceremony, the number comes closer to the population at large.<br /><br />http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=18133<br /><br />Hard to compare the numbers though because all these polls ask differently worded questions.<br /><br />Notice, by the way, that if Arthur's numbers are correct and the "Yes" vote this year represented 51.5% of Presbyterians, but only 49% of the votes cast, that the vote is skewed in favor of the far right. It isn't a huge difference, but we've been hearing for years from the right wingnut propaganda machines about how this whole process is designed to marginalize so-called conservatives and how the whole PCUSA is skewed in favor of us godless liberal socialist fascist gay atheists. Clearly that isn't the case and we've got the numbers to prove it.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-13608950357985475582009-05-21T05:50:25.005-07:002009-05-21T05:50:25.005-07:00@Jodie
"I think the general population is coming ...@Jodie<br /><br />"I think the general population is coming around to accepting gays as regular people faster than the clergy."<br /><br />I tend to think so too, but I haven't seen any data in support or against that. It may be out there, I just haven't seen it.<br /><br />"And there is a definite generational thing too."<br /><br />Absolutely! Unfortunately our denomination is graying. This is not good news. I suspect those young people who are leaving the church are exactly the ones we need.<br /><br />@John<br /><br />"The number one factor in regards to acceptance is when the "issue" is shown in reality to be people we know."<br /><br />Do you think the Clergy's relative tendency toward acceptance is possibly due to a higher degree of familiarity?<br /><br />We pew sitters can just walk away and see/learn nothing, but Clergy are more likely to stick around and see the influence of the Spirit.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13702889885321249239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-90228756304040181722009-05-20T19:28:51.290-07:002009-05-20T19:28:51.290-07:00The number one factor in regards to acceptance is ...The number one factor in regards to acceptance is when the "issue" is shown in reality to be people we know. <br /><br />It is a great deal more difficult to discriminate against June and Marsha than an abstraction like The Gay.<br /><br />That is why these votes are so important. People get a chance to hear stories if not always from at least about real people that our abstract ideologies harm.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-52397266131752626342009-05-20T19:07:40.960-07:002009-05-20T19:07:40.960-07:00Arthur,
Maybe, but on this topic I think the gene...Arthur,<br /><br />Maybe, but on this topic I think the general population is coming around to accepting gays as regular people faster than the clergy. At least among the college educated.<br /><br />And there is a definite generational thing too. My kids think nothing of it and wonder why anybody ever did. It's not that they are rebelling. It's way past that. To them, LGBTs are just another part of the scenery of life.<br /><br />It would be interesting if the general population did the vote instead of the Presbyteries. Just to see where the average pew sitters really sit.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-85163801522198518562009-05-20T15:11:49.890-07:002009-05-20T15:11:49.890-07:00Adding to what I wrote earlier:
I wouldn't think ...Adding to what I wrote earlier:<br /><br />I wouldn't think this way of looking at the numbers is very valid, considering that half of the votes come from the Clergy members. It's the Clergy that tend to be progressive not the pew sitters.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13702889885321249239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-86727791706747269212009-05-20T14:58:41.392-07:002009-05-20T14:58:41.392-07:00Jodie,
Sorry to disappoint you, but the presbyter...Jodie,<br /><br />Sorry to disappoint you, but the presbyteries that voted Yes on 08-B only represented about 51.5% of PC(USA) members (using 2006 membership numbers). It is pretty close no matter how you look at it, but at least this way it is greater than 50% for equality.Arthurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13702889885321249239noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-43014569416955944502009-05-20T10:21:42.076-07:002009-05-20T10:21:42.076-07:00Wow,
And what about the number of Presbyterians t...Wow,<br /><br />And what about the number of Presbyterians they represent? <br /><br />I bet that the membership in the Presbyteries that voted for equality greatly outnumbers those that voted to continue oppressing the LGBT community.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-25110160108648670012009-05-20T08:37:00.849-07:002009-05-20T08:37:00.849-07:00I'm so proud of the presbytery that ordained me.I'm so proud of the presbytery that ordained me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-53164855395864598642009-05-20T06:02:54.439-07:002009-05-20T06:02:54.439-07:00BTW, I love that Missouri River defied expectation...BTW, I love that Missouri River defied expectations (particularly the crowing of the LayMAN yesterday predicting they'd take no action) and voted on B anyway.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-22183698142885690972009-05-20T05:40:37.882-07:002009-05-20T05:40:37.882-07:0020 votes. Wow. So close. Shouldn't be to hard t...20 votes. Wow. So close. Shouldn't be to hard to get 20 commissioners to presbytery meetings in 2010 to vote on the Northside Amendment.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.com