tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post1611349337394908227..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Will Spotts on the Theology of John ShuckJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-37754699136424965642007-12-12T18:21:00.000-08:002007-12-12T18:21:00.000-08:00John,You could make it your new slogan: "I'm the w...John,<BR/><BR/>You could make it your new slogan: "I'm the whipping boy, so you don't have to be."OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-52504605229135260022007-12-12T15:34:00.000-08:002007-12-12T15:34:00.000-08:00Onesmallstep-- Ha! I am but a worm. I deserve the ...Onesmallstep-- <BR/><BR/>Ha! I am but a worm. I deserve the condemnation of the Righteous One who hath given the keys and whips to Fundamentalists. Thank you sir, may I have another? <BR/> <BR/>It is not that I deserve it as much as I expect it.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-15920595547626790872007-12-12T15:07:00.000-08:002007-12-12T15:07:00.000-08:00John,So ... you deserve it, then? ;) Grace,**it'...John,<BR/><BR/>So ... you deserve it, then? ;) <BR/><BR/>Grace,<BR/><BR/>**it's possible for someone to be an orthodox, evangelical Christian, and be a universalist. **<BR/>I know. I have a few books written by Christian universalists. <BR/><BR/>**For some, the gospel can be an offense, and the cross of Christ, a scandal.**<BR/><BR/>That really is going to depend on how one defines the gospel. For some, it can offend because it says those in power are not superior. For others, its offensive because the savior wasn't a warrior, conquering everything with a sword. I do find the gospel offensive in saying that everyone deserves to go to hell, because that is essentially saying that not one person on this planet deserves to be loved, or deserves to be in the light, no one deserves justice or anything like that. It's like saying someone deserves to be mutilated, or someone deserves to be raped. And when you look at history, those who believe that another group deserves a horrific death tend to be cruel people. <BR/><BR/>**It can be an almost unconcious emotional response, I think.**<BR/><BR/>The problem with this is that it has the potential to reduce reactions to a purely emotional scale, rather than saying the people are behaving from a rational basis. A lot of people do reject evangelical Christianity based on rational, rather than emotion.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-84821669051793170972007-12-12T06:16:00.000-08:002007-12-12T06:16:00.000-08:00One, it's possible for someone to be an orthodox, ...One, it's possible for someone to be an orthodox, evangelical Christian, and be a universalist. My own husband has this conviction, and trust me, oh, does he feel strongly about this. :)<BR/><BR/>But, he does feel that all "salvation," so to speak ,is through the cross of Christ, just that eventually everyone will be "saved."<BR/><BR/> I think it's possible for people to feel threatened by the concept of truth not being pluriform as well. For some, the gospel can be an offense, and the cross of Christ, a scandal.<BR/><BR/>Or, some may have become so hurt and wounded in the past by Christians, that they want nothing to do with a faith that sounds remotely orthodox, or evangelical. It can be an almost unconcious emotional response, I think.<BR/><BR/>I'm not saying, One, this is where I think Mystical is at. But, just speaking in a general sense.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-48878592134868957302007-12-11T21:09:00.000-08:002007-12-11T21:09:00.000-08:00Sara--thank you and exactly! Glad you visited. T...Sara--thank you and exactly! Glad you visited. The whole point is to think and to make your own decision. Hey, you have pooh on your blog...<BR/><BR/>Fly-- you wrote:<BR/><BR/>"People on "our side" should have been fulminating about the right-wing whackjobs all this time instead of accepting them as brothers and sisters in Christ with whom we don't agree."<BR/><BR/>What you wrote does not sound very pc nor nice nor like how a guilt-ridden liberal would sound. I like it!<BR/><BR/>Mystical--you wrote:<BR/><BR/>"They cling so tightly to their dogma and try to suppress free thinkers because their fragile, carefully constructed house of cards is always under threat of collapse."<BR/><BR/>It already has collapsed. Don Cupitt's latest book, "Impossible Loves" is a good one for where we are headed.<BR/><BR/>Grace--I am glad you are here! I am glad all of you are here, but I am pleased you keep hanging in there with me. You bring up good points that need to be addressed. You wrote:<BR/><BR/>"They are concerned for people to know Him, and for that reason care about the content of the faith that is preached from our pulpits, and taught to the young people in catechism or S.S. programs."<BR/><BR/>That's fine. I am concerned too. The content I like to teach and preach is the recognition that all content is temporal and contingent. Nothing stays the same. We need to be encouraged to question everything (including of course everything teachers and preachers, including me of course, say).<BR/><BR/>Onesmallstep--Thanks. I should say that some backlash against me is because I bring it on and I don't roll over. I don't apologize for that. I can give it as well as take it. I am no victim. <BR/><BR/>For everyone:<BR/><BR/>This isn't about me. Many folks are discouraged from expressing dissenting views, "heretical" views, "unpatriotic" views, or whatever because of fear of backlash. I believe that no one should be afraid to say or write what is on their minds, to openly question any self-proclaimed orthodoxy, and to be wrong. <BR/><BR/>In my fifteen years of ministry, I have found that people have largely been conditioned to accept authority and not to question it (at least openly). I am probably wrong on most everything I write. But I defend my freedom to be wrong, and yours as well.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-46986685559392638272007-12-11T15:00:00.000-08:002007-12-11T15:00:00.000-08:00**What if your theological and philosophical edifi...**What if your theological and philosophical edifice came crashing down? Are your truly open and tolerant toward the beliefs of the orthodox Christians? :)**<BR/><BR/>I don't think that's a possiblity. Mystical's point seems to be, and I've seen this as well, is that there is not one valid path only to God, in terms of accepting certain things about Jesus or Allah or another religion. It's like those who say that if universalism is true, then what was the point of Jesus dying? Or those who say that if everyone gets to heaven, then the whole system is worthless.<BR/><BR/>But those who say that the paths to God are found in more than one belief system, or we're all climbing up the same mountain, only some fly up there, and others crawl underneath -- there's no threat to a theological system. You don't have the one and only ultimate truth, and if you learn something differently, you aren't suddenly skyrocketing to hell (is that an oxymoron?) <BR/><BR/>It may be that there are some who are simply concerned that people know Jesus properly. But in looking against the backlash that John gets frequently, that's not the impression. The impression is that the dogmatics are concerned about being right, first and foremost.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-50736430073424403112007-12-11T14:21:00.000-08:002007-12-11T14:21:00.000-08:00Mystical,I think we have to trust God, and seek tr...Mystical,<BR/><BR/>I think we have to trust God, and seek truth. I personally would not want to base my whole life in a delusion, no matter what.<BR/><BR/>But, have you felt afraid sometimes, dear Mystical? What if your theological and philosophical edifice came crashing down? Are your truly open and tolerant toward the beliefs of the orthodox Christians? :)Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-48310607368377439632007-12-11T13:05:00.000-08:002007-12-11T13:05:00.000-08:00Grace, my experience has been that it is almost un...Grace, my experience has been that it is almost universal among those who adhere to a certain brand of theology that they believe that their entire theological edifice would come crashing down if they were to accept the legitimacy of the theologies that they attack. So regardless of the ostensibly "altruistic" motives that lie behind their intolerance, there is a subtext of fear.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-53731175917874068512007-12-11T12:50:00.000-08:002007-12-11T12:50:00.000-08:00Mystical,It's true that some do speak out from wro...Mystical,<BR/><BR/>It's true that some do speak out from wrong motives, and may have an unloving spirit. But, there are many Christian people who are grieved by this whole situation in the churches out of a love for Jesus Christ, and His gospel.<BR/><BR/><BR/> They are concerned for people to know Him, and for that reason care about the content of the faith that is preached from our pulpits, and taught to the young people in catechism or S.S. programs.<BR/><BR/>Everyone cannot be judged, and painted with the same tar brush.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-10881564635935918552007-12-11T10:02:00.000-08:002007-12-11T10:02:00.000-08:00I think that John has it right that these witch hu...I think that John has it right that these witch hunters are control freaks. But I also think that, at some level, there is a degree of fear that lies underneath it, because their whole belief structure is really just a house of cards. They cling so tightly to their dogma and try to suppress free thinkers because their fragile, carefully constructed house of cards is always under threat of collapse.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-82427466615770669412007-12-11T06:39:00.000-08:002007-12-11T06:39:00.000-08:00The full-on cynical answer to tn420's question is ...The full-on cynical answer to tn420's question is I think the correct one.<BR/><BR/>Basically, Will needs a boogeyman to justify his departure from the PC(USA)--and to get a refund check for all his offerings over the years.<BR/><BR/>There are churches in my Presbytery that, if I had the slightest desire to do so, I could call out on abandoning Reformed theology in favor of weird Baptist conservative evangelicalism that borders on Pentecostal. Perhaps that's the problem. People on "our side" should have been fulminating about the right-wing whackjobs all this time instead of accepting them as brothers and sisters in Christ with whom we don't agree.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-15555344063657972032007-12-11T06:33:00.000-08:002007-12-11T06:33:00.000-08:00While I don't agree with all of your theology, the...While I don't agree with all of your theology, the important thing is, I don't have to. I had about given up on the PCUSA based on my local experiences. However, in the last 6 months, I have discovered a growing community of people within the church who are willing to take the risks involved with being a follower of Jesus Christ in today's world. Thank you so much for your blog, it always makes me think.Sarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08294206507900224989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-27659297812934179582007-12-11T06:29:00.000-08:002007-12-11T06:29:00.000-08:00John, I don't know anything about Spotts, or his m...John, I don't know anything about Spotts, or his motives. But, I have to agree with tn420. Jesus promised to build His church, and that ultimately even the gates of Hell would never prevail against it.<BR/><BR/>I don't think followers of Jesus need to feel at all threatened by anything. God expects us to use our minds, and trust Him to reveal truth.<BR/><BR/>We should be loving, and open to everyone. But, my personal view, is that a Christian minister should honor his/her ordination vows, and teach and preach the faith of the Christian church.<BR/><BR/> For me, it also would be a matter of integrity. Otherwise, I would not choose to work in and for the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. <BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I can't discount how God's spirit may be working in someone's life, either. I would not want to risk doing anything by my spirit or attitude that might drive a seeker away from the Lord. We should not conduct orthodox, litmus tests at the church door. <BR/><BR/>So, even though, I feel so strongly, and my whole heart is wrapped around the gospel, I would just as soon have those heretics sitting right next to me in the pew, and even preaching from the pulpit than out the door forever.<BR/><BR/>(But, I"m going to be honest, and not pretend that these differences don't matter, and we are all on the same page with the "good news." We need to keep talkin.) <BR/><BR/>God loves every false teacher, and earnest seeker. Jesus died for those "wolves in sheeps clothing," for all of us sinners.<BR/><BR/>Thank the Lord for His amazing love, and grace.<BR/><BR/>All of God's peace and wisdom to you, friends.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-67317671251783550002007-12-11T06:01:00.000-08:002007-12-11T06:01:00.000-08:00Spotts and other self-proclaimed heresy hunters jo...Spotts and other self-proclaimed heresy hunters join a long line of control freaks throughout history. <BR/><BR/>The thing is that these guys are a bunch of weak-kneed whiners. They attempt through intimidation to silence free thought. <BR/><BR/>I have found that the best way to deal with them is to stand up to them. One spoof shall fell them.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-39083365984610008202007-12-10T22:28:00.000-08:002007-12-10T22:28:00.000-08:00I have a question for this Spotts person. Why does...I have a question for this Spotts person. Why does he fear John Shuck?<BR/>If his faith is strong, he shouldn't be bothered by your views.<BR/>Why do these people who claim to be all about God and Jesus feel threatened enough to lash out at people like you, or me, or the secular world in general?<BR/><BR/>Why do they fear the concept of evolution or free will? Didn't Jesus say not to fear but take courage in his name?<BR/><BR/>So Spotts is obsessed with the lies of the Catholic Church and is afraid to open his eyes because he will then have to begin using the brain God gave him.<BR/>Par for the fundi course.<BR/><BR/>It doesn't disprove the existence of a "Holy" spirit to see the absurdity in virgin birth and physical resurrection. Once again we see the fundi absorbed with the flesh and blind to the spirit. It doesn't diminish the guidelines Jesus gave us to live by if we accept that there has always been some form of evolution.<BR/><BR/>I believe in the spiritual realm and I believe in the wisdom of the words of Jesus. I fear none of these things.<BR/>Fear is for the weak of faith. I shall pray that Mr. Spotts' finds the courage of his convictions.captainkonahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04011881473365734763noreply@blogger.com