tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post1784220321625596707..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Natural and UnnaturalJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-73050084649675343732009-03-09T13:16:00.000-07:002009-03-09T13:16:00.000-07:00Yes, absolutely. This what this blog is all about...Yes, absolutely. This what this blog is all about. Thank you, Tim, for sharing your experience and your wisdom gained from it. <BR/><BR/>Thanks to all for the passionate and heartfelt comments. <BR/><BR/>We are all trying our best to bind up our own broken hearts. <BR/><BR/>From our PCUSA <A HREF="http://www.pcusa.org/101/101-faith.htm" REL="nofollow">Brief Statement of Faith</A><BR/><BR/>In a broken and fearful world<BR/> the Spirit gives us courage<BR/> to pray without ceasing,<BR/> to witness among all peoples to Christ as Lord and Savior,<BR/> to unmask idolatries in church and culture,<BR/> to hear the voices of peoples long silenced,<BR/> and to work with others for justice, freedom, and peace.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-78512182759520599462009-03-09T11:13:00.000-07:002009-03-09T11:13:00.000-07:00Tim and I have struck up a bit of a friendship tha...Tim and I have struck up a bit of a friendship thanks to John's blog. I'd consider it a friendship, at least, and I think he would concur.<BR/><BR/>He's agreed to be one of the people to talk me through this process, and I'm so grateful for it.Lee M. Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414914592624225281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-88338063299721274602009-03-09T11:10:00.000-07:002009-03-09T11:10:00.000-07:00Wow, Tim. I'm truly blown away by your words. Th...Wow, Tim. I'm truly blown away by your words. Thank you so much for sharing your story with Lee and the rest of us. This is what John's blog is all about, and I am sure he is thrilled to have you take up the space!Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-67609972530499843882009-03-07T14:12:00.000-08:002009-03-07T14:12:00.000-08:00Lee, while I don't mean to hijack John's blog (and...Lee, while I don't mean to hijack John's blog (and trust he understands my compulsion to reply here), I want to encourage you to hang on to any shred of hope you have. <BR/><BR/>Check out the first few verses of Romans 5--Paul's step-by-step "faith map" that starts with trials, which family turmoil certainly is, and ends in hope. He says, "Hope doesn't disappoint because of God's love." I happen to like the KJV translation: "Hope maketh not ashamed because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts." Hope is the key to every believer's dignity.<BR/><BR/>Knowing God loves and accepts you, you must also know His Spirit is speaking to your family. If they turn a deaf ear, that's on them--to their shame--and signifies their weakness. As the stronger believer, you can only love and accept them as you would were the tables turned, if they were the "outsiders" and you were in the "mainstream." (Because, in reality, that's the situation, anyway. You are "inside" God's love. They've been blinded by legalism and can't see that.)<BR/><BR/>Accepting them as they are does two wonderful things. First, it reorients your responses (inwardly and outwardly) to view them with compassion, shifting your expectations from what they'll do to what you'll offer in return for what they don't do. But second, it secures your position of strength and shields you from a lot of unnecessary pain that comes from their iron-fisted attempts to exert authority over you. <BR/><BR/>I speak from experience here. My situation grew so dire and the battles with my folks so exhausting I had no alternative but to surrender them to God and prepare to live completely apart from them. Both my parents are preachers, which means they're extremely adept at manipulating the Word to inspire change. And after hitting me with all they had, when I didn't change--not because I didn't want to, but because I knew in my heart I didn't need to--my dad went for the gut. "Son, heaven won't be worth anything to me if you're not there."<BR/><BR/>This broke my heart, but it steeled my hope. I knew I would spend eternity with him in God's presence, because God's love would see to it. But more than that, I realized if my folks never came around to understand and accept me, the truth of God's love would be revealed the moment they entered His glory. Taking my cue from Paul, I realized if I limited my hope to this life, I would be the most miserable man alive. So I gave up all expectations for changes I would see here in hope of changes I can only see by faith.<BR/><BR/>My brother, you have hope. Your faith in God's love gives you hope. Give your family up to Him. Thank Him for the family of friends and loved ones He's given you. But with every test your natural family brings you, hold on to your hope.<BR/><BR/>Blessings. I'm praying for you.<BR/><BR/>PS: Rather than co-opt John's space, I'm more than happy to continue this conversation via email. Feel free to write me at straight.friendly@yahoo.com. (And thanks, John, for your patience and understanding.)Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01271248501086241494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-60111014540444160832009-03-06T11:48:00.000-08:002009-03-06T11:48:00.000-08:00But, unlike your parents, I have no hope whatsoeve...<I>But, unlike your parents, I have no hope whatsoever that they'll come around.</I><BR/><BR/>Very poorly worded.<BR/><BR/>Unlike your parents, I have no hope whatsoever that mine will come around.Lee M. Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414914592624225281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-49320667267247074512009-03-06T11:47:00.000-08:002009-03-06T11:47:00.000-08:00Thanks for your words. They soothe.But, unlike you...Thanks for your words. They soothe.<BR/><BR/>But, unlike your parents, I have no hope whatsoever that they'll come around.<BR/><BR/>I have so little hope of it that I don't even pray for it to happen. I'll save my prayers for something that might actually bear fruit.<BR/><BR/>I've had some incredibly hurtful things said to me, one in particular just this week, and the wounds remain raw.<BR/><BR/>As I'm sure you well know, it's hard to get past it.Lee M. Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414914592624225281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-87398702027181334212009-03-06T11:19:00.000-08:002009-03-06T11:19:00.000-08:00Wow, John. First, thanks for referring to my post-...Wow, John. First, thanks for referring to my post--it's a honor to say the least. Second, I clicked over to say this and see the torrent of thought on the loose is more than enough to encourage me to read, listen, and be silent.<BR/><BR/>I do, however, want to support your comments to Lee about family. Psalm 68.6 says, "God sets the lonely in families." When I was dealing with being rejected by "both" of my families--my biologic and faith kin--that Scripture sustained me. Instead of mourning what I'd lost, I started paying attention to where I'd been placed. <BR/><BR/>My "family" turned out to be a 70-something radical atheist, his highly opinionated (and troubled) children, the widow of a former family friend who, having lived on the down-low, died of AIDS, and a congregation of several thousand African-American Pentecostals who rejoiced in the fact that we're all sinners saved by grace. Nothing in my genetic or environmental background suggested my family would look like this. Yet these people loved me, accepted me, and even those who didn't believe in God encouraged me to pursue personal fulfillment in my faith.<BR/><BR/>That mattered more than anything to me then, and still does. I understood what Christ meant by forsaking our natural families to follow Him in a very real way. And, over time, an odd thing happened. Many (though not all) of those who denied my right to believe have come around to defend it. For example, my parents--both of them Pentecostal preachers who once pleaded with me "to get right before it's too late"--are daily readers and avid supporters of my blog for GLBT believers. My mom--God love her--litters email boxes with links to posts she wants others in our family and circle to read.<BR/><BR/>After saying God puts us in families, the Psalm adds, "He leads for the prisoners with singing, but the rebellious live an a sun-scorched land." I'm a singing fool these days--and I pray for those who continue to rebel against the truth of His acceptance of all His children. <BR/><BR/>Just a little witness to confirm the wisdom in your words to Lee...<BR/><BR/>Blessings always.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01271248501086241494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-9021536100701769582009-03-05T03:56:00.000-08:002009-03-05T03:56:00.000-08:00Wow. A person leaves the room for a day and look ...Wow. A person leaves the room for a day and look what happens: the "Natural" life-cycle of a discussion happens!Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-6414479432403265972009-03-04T16:46:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:46:00.000-08:00Never said you were.Whatevs. I'm done with my "si...Never said you were.<BR/><BR/>Whatevs. I'm done with my "silly arguments." ;)Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-481901277364704832009-03-04T16:44:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:44:00.000-08:00It is hard to tell what you are aiming your carica...It is hard to tell what you are aiming your caricatures at Alan.<BR/><BR/>That is all I am saying. <BR/><BR/>As far as I am concerned, gays and lesbians are as natural as anyone else, and personally, I think biology supports this common sense view. But I am not saying biology is the reason they should have equal civil rights.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-21543183108592962762009-03-04T16:43:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:43:00.000-08:00I agree, Lee.Rob has, I think, completely misread ...I agree, Lee.<BR/><BR/>Rob has, I think, completely misread my comments.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-43706716773772718712009-03-04T16:40:00.001-08:002009-03-04T16:40:00.001-08:00The science of Evolutionary Developmental Biology ...The science of Evolutionary Developmental Biology is telling us a lot about the biological basis of sex determination and sexual behavior in animals, but this goes only so far when we ask the question of what determines sexual orientation in humans. This is because humans transcend the lower animals in the use of language and culture, and they possess an degree of freedom when it comes to behavior that lower animals do not possess. There are limits to the range of learned behavior in even the high primates. Yet humans appear to have a range of freedom in culture and behavior that gives them a degree of freedom from many biological limitations.<BR/><BR/>Nevertheless, we are learning more about the nature of the ways in which nature and nurture interact that we only speculated about before but are now being empirically uncovered in the lab. Take the experiment where it would found that the manner of nurturing of a mother rat actually reconfigured the epigenome of the baby rats, and this reconfigured epigenome actually altered the behavior (from less aggressive to more aggressive) of the offspring when they reached adulthood. By simply giving them a drug that revered the epigenetic markings, the rats reverted to the less aggressive behavior. (Ghost in Your Genes)<BR/><BR/>Here, a change in behavior by the parent altered the genome of the offspring after birth, which in turn altered their behavior. They have also documented that what the mother eats while pregnant can alter the epigenome of the offspring and have hereditary effects for further generations. This was all once denied by biologists, and now it is being proven in the lab. <BR/><BR/>What does this say about homosexuality; nothing directly, but it does indicate if one human behavior (aggression) is able to be altered by epigenetics that another (sexual orientiation) might be too. Should it be used to determine the legal status of gays and lesbians in civil society; absolutely not, but I doubt this will stop Al from making his silly arguments.<BR/><BR/>It does tell us though that sexual orientation, etc., is like any other human behavior, such as aggression, is capable of being altered by altering the epigenome. And that means that we are as much a part of nature as we are of our nurturing families and cultures.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-57353259948071890352009-03-04T16:40:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:40:00.000-08:00Gentlemen, gentlemen.Why the bickering? Aren't we ...Gentlemen, gentlemen.<BR/><BR/>Why the bickering? Aren't we ultimately on the same side?Lee M. Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05414914592624225281noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-35003445967028165862009-03-04T16:38:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:38:00.000-08:00You're preaching to the choir here, Rob. LOL. I'...You're preaching to the choir here, Rob. LOL. I'm not sure whom you're even addressing. :)Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-50537573784581924842009-03-04T16:37:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:37:00.000-08:00BTW, with due respect to Paul Simon, you cannot ca...BTW, with due respect to Paul Simon, you cannot call me "Al." Thanks. :)<BR/><BR/>You appear to be making far too many assumptions about me to bother refuting, nor do I find any reason to try. But enjoy. If, in the future, after you've calmed down a bit, you'd like to have another pleasant conversation, I'm always up for it.<BR/><BR/>Take care!Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-85687818224046453242009-03-04T16:35:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:35:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-33706448424778483062009-03-04T16:33:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:33:00.000-08:00"I believe somewhere above I noted it was not in h..."I believe somewhere above I noted it was not in humans 'totally, and completely a biologically determined phenomenon.'"<BR/><BR/>First, I'm glad we agree. Second, I never said you said that it was only biological. What I said was that, in general, that is how the argument gets stated, whether people actually believe it or not. I think mostly you're having a difficult time seeing that I'm arguing against the general perception and use of these nature vs. nurture arguments and are instead taking my critique of the argument itself personally.<BR/><BR/>My point stands: "It's natural!" takes the argument no where, because the refutation is obvious.<BR/><BR/>"While humans are animals they possess langauge and culture and intellectual (reflective self-conscious thought) powers which transcend our animals cousins."<BR/><BR/>Yup, and that's obvious even to the fundies, which is why they respond to this debate with "You don't have to act on it." Check Mate.<BR/><BR/>To reiterate my position, I am simply making the same argument, from the Enlightenment, that our founding fathers made, to wit: we are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights. As a Christian, I would say that that we all are endowed with those rights because we are created in the Imago Dei, the image of God. Do we deserve those rights because, even though we're not straight we were "born that way" (ie. gay)? No. Do we deserve those rights because we choose to be gay? No. We deserve those rights because we're human beings. Period.<BR/><BR/>"It does not refelcte well on either intelligence or moralality."<BR/><BR/>Well, then I won't bother with the rest of your comment. Don't want to bore you with my stupidity and immorality. ;)<BR/><BR/>Thanks for what was, up to now, an interesting conversation! <BR/><BR/>Peace!Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-55701115163142511042009-03-04T16:15:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:15:00.000-08:00Them: "It ain't natural!"Us: "But what about the g...Them: "It ain't natural!"<BR/><BR/>Us: "But what about the gay penguins!?"<BR/><BR/>Oh, good grief.<BR/><BR/>---<BR/><BR/>The only joke here Al is your dishonest twisting what is being said. It appears dishonesty extends beyond being a fundy, for the simply honest recognition that we as human animals are subject to biology along with the rest of the animal world has little to do with your silly argument. That we are also creatures with language and culture seems to elude you, as you attempt to make a caricature of a real world in which humans are part of the evolutionary world, and subject too biology along with the rest of life.<BR/><BR/>Is this another form of religious fundamentalist we are witnessing here?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-10288482172694058682009-03-04T16:11:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:11:00.000-08:00"Nature OR nurture" ...I hope you don't attempt to..."Nature OR nurture" ...<BR/><BR/>I hope you don't attempt to create arguments for civil rights for gays and lesbiains with the same distorting of others words as you are exhibiting here. It does not refelcte well on either intelligence or moralality.<BR/><BR/>It is not a black and white either or when it comes to humans. We have language and culture and a level of intellectual self-reflective consciousness that radically changes nature via nurture.<BR/><BR/>Yet, we also are biological creatures. So, Al, if want to become a little more informed take a look at the NOVA show "Ghost in Your Genes" to see how much biology CAN influence social behavior, which would include sexuality. And the evidence this documentary is based upon is solid empirical evidence.<BR/><BR/>It is called epigenetics, and they are discovering that epigenetics most certainly can influence behavioral tendencies.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-49105245358355587672009-03-04T16:09:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:09:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-86425052209992706372009-03-04T16:05:00.000-08:002009-03-04T16:05:00.000-08:00" I find it hard to believe that something as comp..." I find it hard to believe that something as complex as sexual orientation is only, totally, and completely a biologically determined phenomenon."<BR/><BR/>You sure don't read very carefully do you Alan ;-)<BR/><BR/>Is that by intelligent design?<BR/><BR/>I believe somewhere above I noted it was not in humans "totally, and completely a biologically determined phenomenon."<BR/><BR/>While humans are animals they possess langauge and culture and intellectual (reflective self-conscious thought) powers which transcend our animals cousins.<BR/><BR/>That should be clear to anyone who thinks deeply about these issues.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-2136992334578615162009-03-04T14:54:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:54:00.000-08:00BTW, just to lay all my cards on the table, I find...BTW, just to lay all my cards on the table, I find it hard to believe that something as complex as sexual orientation is only, totally, and completely a biologically determined phenomenon.<BR/><BR/>What's the point then of oversimplifying the argument to either nature OR nurture, if we don't believe it ourselves?<BR/><BR/>Since when has anyone heard this argument?<BR/><BR/>Them: "It ain't natural!"<BR/><BR/>Us: "Well, actually there's lots of evidence showing that it may involve prenatal maternal hormones, birth order, and perhaps some genetics, but it there may also be elements of personal choice, and child rearing, and societal expectations, and many other aspects involved too."<BR/><BR/>I'm going to guess that the number of times such an argument actually gets used rounds to nearly zero when compared to this version:<BR/><BR/>Them: "It ain't natural!"<BR/><BR/>Us: "But what about the gay penguins!?"<BR/><BR/>Oh, good grief.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-88373620961957219272009-03-04T14:41:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:41:00.000-08:00Rob wrote, "We deem it worthy to confer civil righ...Rob wrote, "We deem it worthy to confer civil rights that say no discerimination based upon ethnicity (a biologically determined reality) because it would be simply unfair to discriminate against someone based upon race or ethnicity."<BR/><BR/>Yes, we have laws that specifically say that we do not discriminate on the basis of biology. Such laws do not give anyone additional rights nor take any away, they simply state that people should be treated equally *regardless of biology.* Those laws, in fact, illustrate my argument precisely.<BR/><BR/>At the same time I have also said that we also protect people's choices, such as religion. I believe the "It's Natural" argument runs away from that, basically trying to make an excuse for sexual orientation, instead of doing the hard work of coming up with a real sexual ethic.<BR/><BR/>We've done their work for them. We allow them to bully us about choices we make, and we allow them to push us into untenable arguments about being "born that way."<BR/><BR/>You wrote, "That is an odd statement; I cannot think of single serious issue that has been debated in society that is not based on "assumptions" with which people fundamentally disagree "<BR/><BR/>Sorry I wasn't clearer. What I meant was that Person A should not make an argument based on assumptions with which Person A fundamentally disagrees. For example, I'm saying I will not argue for LGBT rights using an argument that sounds suspiciously close to biological determinism at best, and eugenics at worst, because, even though I believe in equal rights, the argument rests on assumptions I find offensive. That is, I do not want to make an argument based on biology, because I don't agree that people should be given rights based on the particulars of their biology.<BR/><BR/>What is purpose of the "It's Natural!" argument except to say, "We deserve rights because it isn't our fault, it's in our genes." I think that's a poor excuse for getting rights. We ought to get them because we're human beings, not because we fit a particular genetic profile ... or not.<BR/><BR/>I don't doubt that you do not intend to make those assumptions which underly the "It's Natural" argument. After all, we've all heard that argument for 20 years or so, and I'm sure no one intends for it to be essentially a eugenics argument. But one cannot escape the inevitable conclusion that it is based on an assumption that rights should be given or taken away based on inborn biological factors.<BR/><BR/>I simply disagree. (Well, that and I'm really bad at towing the party line.) :)Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-23737173424375853192009-03-04T14:17:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:17:00.000-08:00Now I happen to think that arguing these issues wi...<I>Now I happen to think that arguing these issues with the fundies is pointless, but obviously most people think I'm wrong about that.</I><BR/><BR/>Like a moth to a lightbulb, I keep going back! : )John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-87106093523750449342009-03-04T14:15:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:15:00.000-08:00"The 'It's natural!' argument basically says that ..."The 'It's natural!' argument basically says that queers should have rights because we can't help being queer ..."<BR/><BR/>Alan,<BR/><BR/>You are reading into my point more than I intended or ever said. You are poking at a "straw man" argument.<BR/><BR/>"Think about the main assumption inherent in that argument: rights should be determined by biology."<BR/><BR/>This is your assumption, certainly not mine. It also missed the point by a mile.<BR/><BR/>First, society has many different standards that are deemed worthy to be protected as rights. <BR/><BR/>The color or one's skin is determined by biology(ethnicity), and we as a socieity have created laws that protect individuals from discrimintation because of their race or ethnicty. That does not preclude them being protect by other rights that are not defined by biology, such as their religious beliefs. <BR/><BR/>This is a false either/or statement. We deem it worthy to confer civil rights that say no discerimination based upon ethnicity (a biologically determined reality) because it would be simply unfair to discriminate against someone based upon race or ethnicity. <BR/><BR/>If, (and I am not arguing this should be the basis of legal arguments for civil rights) sexual orientation has biological basis, that logically has a bearing on the entire argument it is a sin because the bible says so BS. That is my only point, not such should be used to argue for civil rights. <BR/><BR/>"There's no point in making an argument based on assumptions with which we fundamentally disagree."<BR/><BR/>That is an odd statement; I cannot think of single serious issue that has been debated in society that is not based on "assumptions" with which people fundamentally disagree ;-)<BR/><BR/>I am not one for arguing with fundies, but we do need to argue for civil rights for eveyone in our courts and society.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00802983318768021197noreply@blogger.com