tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post2370421587277228827..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: A Sober Reflection on the New WineskinsJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-49769797952640390732007-11-09T14:54:00.000-08:002007-11-09T14:54:00.000-08:00To gordbrown:As I am named for my Grandfather ......To gordbrown:<BR/><BR/>As I am named for my Grandfather ...who lived a good life on both sides of our shared border ...and is buried in his hometown of London, Ontario ...it is nice to read wise words from the land of my Mom's Dad's birth.<BR/><BR/>I feel blessed to have found Rev. John Shuck ....and have already met two families of Brown's at FPC-E.<BR/><BR/>May God continue to Bless 'The Great White North!'<BR/><BR/>-Cameron (Brown) Bothwell<BR/><BR/>aka 'Twain' ...eh? :-)Twainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16940787164347916849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-29017126600179959632007-11-07T09:11:00.000-08:002007-11-07T09:11:00.000-08:00Thanks, Aric.I will be gracious---eventually...Thanks, Aric.<BR/><BR/>I will be gracious---eventually...John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-10828765509910946362007-11-07T09:07:00.000-08:002007-11-07T09:07:00.000-08:00You have a good point about what goes into trainin...You have a good point about what goes into training a minister and the history of the witness. I agree that the whining about "rights" and "oppression" is obnoxious. I wish people on both sides would be a bit more gracious to one another.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-46551256429678789302007-11-07T05:47:00.000-08:002007-11-07T05:47:00.000-08:00Thanks Gord and Aric.Yes, God will work all this o...Thanks Gord and Aric.<BR/><BR/>Yes, God will work all this out in one way or another. This, too shall pass.<BR/><BR/>Actually, Aric, I don't really care that much about property. When it comes down to it, on a case by case basis, your suggestion is the way to go, of course. <BR/><BR/>Presbyteries and congregations will need to make agreements and to compromise. I have served on COMs and have done this type of thing before. <BR/><BR/>What I find reprehensible about the Whiners is that they somehow feel it is their right because they are the only true Jesus people and that the denomination is oppressive and on and on. <BR/><BR/>The PCUSA witness is unique and it is valuable. It is not simply a matter of how much the current voting membership has put into the building or how many want to leave. <BR/>It is a witness that has been there long before the current membership or minister has been there.<BR/><BR/>Think of what goes into to making a minister, for instance. We have received training by the way by thousands of faithful people all across the PCUSA who built the seminaries, who constructed the infrastructure and so forth. <BR/><BR/>No, I am not advocating revenge on these folks. In the cases you mention, your solution is an adequate one. <BR/><BR/>Yet, the schismatics should realize that it is the PCUSA who is the generous one if it grants the property. In so doing, it is using the gifts of many others across the denomination, living and dead, to finance their schism. <BR/><BR/>We are all interconnected in more ways than we can see.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-9330519521546158462007-11-06T23:19:00.000-08:002007-11-06T23:19:00.000-08:00John,I understand your ire and have substantial ag...John,<BR/><BR/>I understand your ire and have substantial agreements with you. As it concerns the vows of many in our denomination actively promoting schism, I am extremely disappointed.<BR/><BR/>However, I don't think property is a good battle line to draw. The church is not a business. Money and property too easily become matters we obsess over, which consume any possibility of us actually being THE CHURCH. I say, if a congregation has paid for their own property (which in 90% of the cases they have) and a substantial majority (say 80%) of the congregation wants to leave the denomination that we send them off with blessings and work hard to find good PCUSA homes for those who wish to stay. <BR/><BR/>This is not because I am in favor of schism. Far from it. But we cannot coerce membership and using property as a tool to enforce the denomination's will only implicates us in their game. <BR/><BR/>It is not a question of "rights". Rights only obscure the fact that we owe much more to one another than merely what is fair. We must be gracious.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-23989811046951909342007-11-06T10:15:00.000-08:002007-11-06T10:15:00.000-08:00I appreciate your taking the time to work through ...I appreciate your taking the time to work through and provide a sober reflection on what has been going on on this blog. I love this blog and the people who come to it but the past few days have been very disconcerting on deep personal level.<BR/><BR/>One thing I will say is sometimes my more conservative colleagues surprise me (I sit as a Presbyter and Elder in the Presbyterian Church in Canada). For example, everyone of my colleagues (including ex-pat Americans) are unanimous in opposing the war in Iraq.<BR/><BR/>Having said that relations around issues of sexual identity and morality are very frustrating to me. A vocal minority is able to dictate to the majority around provision of proper pastoral care to all(specfically but not restricted to marriage) by threatening to leave. It's almost as if their vows say if you do what I ask I won't follow a divisive path but if you don't all bets are off.<BR/><BR/>Add to this the fact that there are well financed voices spreading discord in mainline churches in a coordinated campaign to silence their prophetic voices and I can certainly understand your anger. The only thing I can say is God's time is not ours and despite the sin and brokeness of the world God will come through eventually. I really believe that.<BR/><BR/>Vaya con Dios<BR/><BR/>Gordgordbrownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06741420085642720240noreply@blogger.com