tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post5303189819791684863..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: What Presbyterians Believe (except me) Part 2John Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-82412362555978077172012-04-25T07:41:14.251-07:002012-04-25T07:41:14.251-07:00The term "Presbyterian" refers to our fo...The term "Presbyterian" refers to our form of church government; that form of representative government is based on a conviction that discernment is based on group processes, not pronouncements from the top of a hierarchy. I believe that is one of the most important things that unifies the Presbyterian Church (USA) even though it simultaneously liberates us.<br />J. M., Huntsville ALmebanejhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05066415759755480754noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-61260573265441244262011-06-19T15:54:46.819-07:002011-06-19T15:54:46.819-07:00@Michael
Yes there are a lot of considerations. ...@Michael<br /><br />Yes there are a lot of considerations. I have read and heard a great deal of advice on how ministers should handle the balance of pastoral care and intellectual honesty (and other kinds of honesty). I have heeded the bad advice and ignored the good (hopefully less than the reverse).<br /><br />My Ishta Devata (my version of the historical Jesus) prods, pushes, and pokes but reminds me that the choice is always mine. <br /><br />Liberation can be scary.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-27021803934054719522011-06-18T16:39:26.833-07:002011-06-18T16:39:26.833-07:00I should admit, in fairness, that for many (most?)...I should admit, in fairness, that for many (most?) Christians, their dominant life issue is not the quest for intellectual clarity, but it's more like: an abusive spouse, or an addicted or rebellious family member, or unemployment; and for such people, if a set of beliefs consistent with a 451 AD worldview makes life go better, well then I guess that's what they will have, and "Presbyterians Believe X" is ok for them. Intellectual obfuscation or outright dishonesty frustrates me to no end, but in a pastoral context, maybe there are other considerations. Not being a pastor I am fairly clueless on what the balance should be; our host could probably make some interesting comments on this.Michael_SChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14179192580620356545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-48411294246125160692011-06-18T13:12:16.638-07:002011-06-18T13:12:16.638-07:00This is a dialogue that must happen among Christia...This is a dialogue that must happen among Christians, whatever the denomination. What does it mean to call ourselves "Christians"? Should we just cede that to the fundies and call ourselves something else? But what? Jesus Followers? <br /><br />Unitarian Universalism is not an option for Christian exiles like John and me and a lot of folks reading this blog. UUs are too exclusionary of Christian tradition -- although there is a separate group called "Unitarian Universalist Christians," which is where I'm finding my home -- as part of an underground start-up chapter in my UU congregation. But we've been accused of being the camel's nose under the tent, and taking over the church . . . so<br /><br />Anyway, The Center for Progressive Christianity, the Jesus Seminar, UU Christians, and others are all trying to figure this out.<br /><br />"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times . . ."Sea Raven, D.Min.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11437086460582996056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-89504996366174939962011-06-17T17:02:54.536-07:002011-06-17T17:02:54.536-07:00"Presbyterians believe what was decided in 45..."Presbyterians believe what was decided in 451 after a hotly contested political struggle, but that is the last word for all time,<br />and don't even think of re-imagining it". <br /><br />Thanks John, I wish more people would call them out like this.<br /><br />Why can't they just be honest about how political and time-bound <br />many of the beliefs are [including in the NT,the anti-Jewish statements such as in 1 TH 2:14ff... do "Presbyterians believe" that also? No of course not.]<br /><br />The implications of historical critical inquiry don't seem to consistently make it outside the academy. The message to them should be "talk to us like we're educated (or trying to be educated) adults please".Michael_SChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14179192580620356545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-48641897963901201412011-06-17T11:37:05.653-07:002011-06-17T11:37:05.653-07:00"What makes a Presbyterian?" might be th..."What makes a Presbyterian?" might be the approach to take, instead of "This is what a Presbyterian IS."Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-48385133188077482122011-06-17T11:24:06.729-07:002011-06-17T11:24:06.729-07:00Meghan, thanks for the push. I think you point ou...Meghan, thanks for the push. I think you point out an important challenge. As a provisional response, I think of my Presbyterianism as analogous to various ethnic identities that are part of who I am. They are streams that flow into the river of who I am today. Presbyterians have our history/histories and we even document them with our confessions and various styles of worship and governance but nevertheless we change.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-50457568012009551482011-06-17T11:11:14.969-07:002011-06-17T11:11:14.969-07:00I wonder, then, how should Presbyterians different...I wonder, then, how should Presbyterians differentiate themselves from any other faith group without talking about how Presbyterian beliefs might differ from those of other faith groups.<br /><br />Without talking about what beliefs we have in common, aren't we pretty much limited to "Presbyterians are people who get together every once in a while in places that have been named 'Presbyterian Churches'but there's really no connection beyond that."?Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16801156528240736336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-22556502412482505392011-06-17T11:09:50.314-07:002011-06-17T11:09:50.314-07:00It seems the LayMAN group would like to think that...It seems the LayMAN group would like to think that option #1 is the ONLY option. As you and I and others here at FPCe are preparing for our THIRD New Member welcome of the year, it seems Option #2 might have something going for it.<br /><br />"You will change. When you do, don't forget to tell your partner." I love that.Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.com