tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post6120607006147702994..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: WISDOM, IMMANENCE AND ELECTIONJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-20082886531921503842007-07-19T18:45:00.000-07:002007-07-19T18:45:00.000-07:00I really like what Bob is saying here. I want to a...I really like what Bob is saying here. I want to add something else to the mix. Bob says to John: “I agree with you that God is intimately involved in creation. That is particularly true since Jesus was on earth and was/is God incarnate.” I have been working on an article on the sacraments as seen by Calvin, and I am enriched by his views about God’s deep involvement with the Jews in their sacraments such as washings and sacrifices. He sees Christ promised in each. My point being that in Christ before and after the incarnation God through him is intimately involved in creation. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all God's promises to his people.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-77816357570688113142007-07-19T18:19:00.000-07:002007-07-19T18:19:00.000-07:00Mystical Seeker,There is a difference between the ...Mystical Seeker,<BR/>There is a difference between the orthodox view of immanence and the panentheistic view. The biblical view is that God is intimately involved with creation but not a part of creation. The panentheistic view is that God is to creation as the head is to the body. In other words, creation is not God or God creation as in pantheism, but creation is a part of God. Or to put it another way God is more than creation.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-24753864531094864292007-07-19T17:03:00.000-07:002007-07-19T17:03:00.000-07:00Regarding other religions and truth, revelation is...Regarding other religions and truth, revelation is not exclusive to Christianity. Look at Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, in Exodus 18, and a priest of pagan religions. But God uses Jethro to rebuke and redirect Moses.<BR/><BR/>That said, there are significant elements of other religions that we can see with our own eyes are categorically false: such as the belief in karma that dalits are born to be slaves, numerous factual claims in the Qur'an that can be traced to earlier fictional writings as well as women's inferiority in Islam. I agree with Bob, that Jesus is the measuring tape for truth. I have never heard a complaint about Jesus that wasn't an obvious misrepresentation.<BR/><BR/>I like Bob's common sense here. He was also against the Iraq war for Christian purposes so he doesn't have to bother with this "Bush fooled me about the WMDs" nonsense. WMDs or not, there was no Christian argument for war.<BR/><BR/>Count me as a fan of Bob!Jim Jordanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12456957270007304493noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-86712873891803055692007-07-19T16:54:00.000-07:002007-07-19T16:54:00.000-07:00I am also a little curious about what he thinks im...I am also a little curious about what he thinks immanence means, since he agrees with panentheism that God is both immanent and transcendent but then says that his concept of immanence is different.<BR/><BR/>The notion that God is both immanent and transcendent is essential to what panentheism is all about. Marcus Borg spends time talking about this in one of his books (I think "The God We Never Knew", but I'm not sure)Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-20153368183726560552007-07-19T16:17:00.000-07:002007-07-19T16:17:00.000-07:00Certainly people can be faithful to their own fait...<I>Certainly people can be faithful to their own faith traditions. The quote from the site suggests that the truth claims of other religions, (and I think the quote suggests all the truth claims of other religions), are also true. I disagree with this. I believe all claims to truth, and I’m speaking theologically here, not scientifically, must be held up to the Truth that God shows us in Jesus Christ and the truth that God reveals to us in the Bible.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't know that all religions are "true", but I do believe that all religions have a claim on truth. But I also think that all religions are human enterprises and can never claim but a piece of this truth. That is how different religions can address people's needs for transcendence in different ways.<BR/><BR/>The reality is that we all can learn wisdom from other religions. Bob cites omnipotence as an example. Since I disagree with the doctrine of omnipotence, I naturally don't agree with that example. In any case, I think it ignores the unique and valuable insights of other faiths to reduce their contribution to Christianity to those areas where they can just remind Christians of their own theological principles (be it omnipotence or whatever.) That is too simplistic and condescending. <BR/><BR/>When I look at Buddhism, I see wisdom, for example, in its understanding of the impermanence of our attachments, or the interrelatedness of all things. These are uniquely Buddhist concerns. Christianity may or may not accept those ideas, but it certainly does not focus on those two issues in the way that Buddhism does. So here we have an example of where two religions can complement one another. Similarly, the historical role of Jewish and Christian prophets can offer something for Buddhists to consider. That isn't to say that I favor syncretism of all faiths into one giant mega-religion. I don't think that is possible. But I do think that wisdom can be found by considering the different approaches to infinite truth that different faiths take. We do indeed have things to learn from one another.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.com