tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post6173819338391333417..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Presbyterian BusybodiesJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-51247184873904407262009-10-13T05:53:28.657-07:002009-10-13T05:53:28.657-07:00Mary,
I'll ignore your childish "God Hat...Mary,<br /><br />I'll ignore your childish "God Haters" tantrum and chalk it up to someone simply getting carried away with their own rhetoric. That happens, and people occasionally type things they don't mean. I'll choose, in spite of any evidence that I should, to give you the benefit of the doubt.<br /><br />Let's be clear: if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married.<br /><br />Let's be clear: If you don't want LGBT people to be ordained, then when a ministerial candidate comes up for a vote in your presbytery, then carry out your right and vote "No" if you wish.<br /><br />That's it. That's all that anyone is saying. No one is forcing you to get married to a woman, and no one is forcing you to vote for the ordination, or vote for the installation of any LGBT person as an elder or minister.<br /><br />You and others want to try to use the "connectional church" as an excuse for butting into other people's business. I would remind you that we are not a top-down church. We're Presbyterians, not Catholics. If you'd prefer a more centralized church polity, then I honestly and as politely as possible would suggest that you seek another denomination, because the Presbyterian church is not now, nor has it ever been about such overarching "federal" (for lack of a better word) control over individual conscience.<br /><br />We will not allow you to change the historical polity of this church into some pathetic parody. We believe in the traditional reformed notion of the priesthood of all believers. At this point, I can't honestly say that I have any idea what you believe in.<br /><br />Or put more simply, I won't violate your freedom of conscience if you don't violate mine.<br /><br />You do, in fact, whether your realize it or not, want to twist God to fit some societal norm. The norm you want is the current societal norm that says LGBT people are less than everyone else, a sentiment you originally said was not what you believed at all. Society currently says LGBT people do not deserve simple human rights. Society says LGBT people should be fired from their jobs, no matter how good they are at their work, simply for being gay. Is that a society norm you believe the Church should follow? Society says that LGBT people should be beaten to death, dragged behind pickup trucks by ropes around their necks, beaten for simply walking down the street.<br /><br />Seriously, Mary, are those the sorts of societal norms you're arguing for?<br /><br />God is here. And God is not changing. And this is what I know about God: God loves everyone equally. But the entire Bible is filled with stories -- David, a mere shepherd becomes king; Moses a murderer becomes a leader of a nation; Abraham a simple farmer becomes the father of a nation; Jesus the poor son of a carpenter is the Lord of all nations -- stories throughout the Bible that tell us in no uncertain terms that God loves us all equally, but that He roots for the underdog.<br /><br />God does not change. He's still rooting for the underdog. Who are you rooting for, Mary? The status quo? Yourself?<br /><br />Again, I hope your outburst above isn't really how you feel, because if it is, you're more of a heretic than anyone you're pointing fingers at, because no one here is saying they are above God as you have said. But again, I choose to believe you're a better person than that, and I hope you will repent of your hateful words. I'm sure there's no one here who wouldn't be happy to forgive you for your words chosen in haste, if you only have the grace to ask for forgiveness.<br /><br />By their fruits you shall know them. Mary, is "God Haters" really how you want to be known?Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-34183246278605295552009-10-12T22:23:13.154-07:002009-10-12T22:23:13.154-07:00Mary,
What change is being made to the Book of Or...Mary,<br /><br />What change is being made to the Book of Order and how would it affect you, your church, or your presbytery?<br /><br />I don't think God is going to be "twisted to fit some societal norm" whatever that means. I imagine that God will stand up for herself.<br /><br />Seriously, let's talk about societal norms. Earlier on this thread Alan mentioned some of these norms. <br /><br />Just today I talked to someone who was fired from her job because she was gay. She was told that was why she was losing her job. There is no protection in Tennessee. <br /><br />The societal norm is second class status for gay people. That is the norm. <br /><br />I along with many others in the church and outside of the church are working to change these societal norms. We want equality to be normal. Those of us who are also people of faith, think that is what God is inviting us to do.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-85637691157500285662009-10-12T21:00:13.341-07:002009-10-12T21:00:13.341-07:00She has the right to argue her point and a direct ...She has the right to argue her point and a direct attack on her isn't likely to make her change her mind. <br /><br />Until she can look at a couple that is same-sex and see that the good fruits they produce whether it be the care they have for each other in sickness and in health or the care of the children they may have (whether foster or adoptive or genetically the child of only one of them) and asks whether a bad tree can produce good fruit, she probably will not change her views. Now what the PCUSA does is your business, but, beliefs like hers also oppose civil recognition which leads to partner split from partner if one can no longer speak for themself. It also leads to children not being adopted and in constant threat of being removed by the state because the couple who have long fostered them is same-sex (see <a href="http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/opinion/epaper/2009/08/23/a22a_gayadopt_leadedit_0823.html" rel="nofollow">current Florida case</a>).Erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18037406583478493064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-24014436889195131782009-10-12T20:24:31.506-07:002009-10-12T20:24:31.506-07:00Seems another of those boiler plate arguments that...Seems another of those boiler plate arguments that came out when the "pretty face" came off was the one about "if you don't let me deny equal rights to teh Gay, you are denying me MY rights!".<br /><br />"Oh the gates swing wide on the other side<br />Just beyond the sunset sea.<br />There'll be room to spare as we enter there - <br />There'll be room for you and room for me.<br />Oh the gates swing wide on the other side<br />Where the fairest roses bloom.<br />On the right hand, and on the left hand<br />50 miles of elbow room."<br /><br />It may not be scripture, but it sure brings a smile to my face when I sing it!Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-2959607774595724152009-10-12T19:35:05.324-07:002009-10-12T19:35:05.324-07:00So Mary E. takes off her mask!
If you disagree wi...So Mary E. takes off her mask!<br /><br />If you disagree with her, get this, you are a God hater?! <br /><br />Mary, are you actually equating yourself with God???!!! <br /><br />You know, you are not the first Fundamentalist to fall back on that defense. Jimmy Carter pointed that out about Fundamentalists once. He said, and I quote, "Its impossible to have a conversation with Fundamentalists because they think that if you disagree with them you are disagreeing with God"<br /><br />In the Old Testament that used to be called blasphemy.<br /><br />It's at least the highest form of arrogance one can achieve.<br /><br />Mary E, you are truly unfit for office. Please, for your sake and for the sake of the Church, resign from all those positions of yours post haste.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-89039762139837827592009-10-12T16:14:25.381-07:002009-10-12T16:14:25.381-07:00…If everybody in the denomination simply mind thei...…If everybody in the denomination simply mind their own business…<br /><br />After that statement there was no way I could leave it alone. I am an active elder in my church and I participate in my Presbytery, I also a member of Presbyterian Women’s Council for my Presbytery. Mind my own business…if it is a part of the Presbyterian Church and the change is wanted to be made in the Book of Church order that will affect every member of the PCUSA? It is smack dab in the middle of MY business. And I refuse to roll over and die and allow God to be twisted to fit some societal norm.<br /><br />So all you God haters get over it. God is here and he ain't changing.Mary Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10978849622269965455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-54507219173330076112009-10-12T11:58:09.593-07:002009-10-12T11:58:09.593-07:00One might think I was a busybody!One might think I was a busybody!John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-78435606890728362292009-10-12T11:26:21.436-07:002009-10-12T11:26:21.436-07:00My! How you DO get around!My! How you DO get around!Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-32707916908714548972009-10-12T09:54:48.603-07:002009-10-12T09:54:48.603-07:00Right again, Alan.
Those who speak and work aga...Right again, Alan. <br /><br />Those who speak and work against equality and continue to work for oppression are the first to cry out how they are <a href="http://scassembly.blogspot.com/2009/10/true-conservatives-persecuted-minority.html" rel="nofollow">persecuted</a> and <a href="http://naminghisgrace.blogspot.com/2009/10/holy-fear-fear-of-holiness.html" rel="nofollow">mocked</a> when they get called on their hypocrisy. <br /><br />Cry me some <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile_tears" rel="nofollow">crocodile tears.</a>John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-9982639593523984572009-10-12T06:49:50.519-07:002009-10-12T06:49:50.519-07:00I guess I missed the "name calling" and ...I guess I missed the "name calling" and "ridicule." Frankly, I don't see it at all.<br /><br />I do find it the usual modus operandi of some people interesting: stop by a clearly liberal blog to state your opinion (which is fine, of course) and then either 1) be shocked that people don't really care about your opinion, or 2) be insulted that people disagree with your opinion.<br /><br />Then 3) leave with hurt feelings.<br /><br />What gives? <br /><br />I do hope these conversations are at least civil (and I think this one has) but folks really shouldn't expect them to be all that productive. And if people can't handle honest disagreement, I'm not sure blog comment forums are really the place to hang out.<br /><br />Not to mention of course, that none of this "impolite" conversation would be necessary if everyone in the denomination simply minded their own business. So playing the victim card really doesn't make a lot of sense.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-30816923312735506322009-10-12T02:03:51.337-07:002009-10-12T02:03:51.337-07:00"They" have such a difficult time believ..."They" have such a difficult time believing/understanding that anyone is actually born "that way." If "they" ever came to understand that, where would the hate come from? Who would they attack next? <br />We just watched a very interesting documentary about the KKK on the History Channel: They wanted to make it very clear that they too are "Bible-based Christians." <br />Well, Mike, I guess the last 20 years have been a waste of time because it was based on love...Tony and Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04213766340490035354noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-68059677473252812292009-10-11T20:21:48.266-07:002009-10-11T20:21:48.266-07:00Mary,
I am glad you commented. You are welcome b...Mary,<br /><br />I am glad you commented. You are welcome back at any time. I appreciate your comments and questions. <br /><br />Peace...John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-1426524599017352012009-10-11T20:10:13.080-07:002009-10-11T20:10:13.080-07:00Well again it is time for me to leave. I have bee...Well again it is time for me to leave. I have been noting but forthright and honest hoping to understand the bases of your choice and I all got was ridicule and questionable biblical platitudes. All your name calling and childish behavior helps to maintain the status quo. <br /><br />God bless and goodnight Mrs. Calabash where ever you are...Mary Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10978849622269965455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-61182966987523493392009-10-11T08:59:26.944-07:002009-10-11T08:59:26.944-07:00"Just becuase I believe homosexuality is a si..."Just becuase I believe homosexuality is a sin does not make me act like some uncivilized beast'.<br /><br />Afraid you just did.<br /><br />You can't hide what you believe.Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-80220101894556789082009-10-10T22:05:31.698-07:002009-10-10T22:05:31.698-07:00Some have we should say been less than neighborly....Some have we should say been less than neighborly. In particular I was thinking of a lesbian couple with children who in 2007 were visiting Florida when one did lose consciousness and was rushed to hospital. Her partner despite have her medical proxy and despite being her partner was not allowed to see her or know her condition because the hospital didn't consider her a relative. Eventually after many hours she was allowed for 5 minutes just as her partner received last rites and was taken off life-support.<br /><br />Personally I would change the priority of the commandments you listed above. First, look to your neighbor, love your neighbor, try even to love your enemy. Don't use the law to be unjust (see Mark 7:9-13). But then I'm an infidel.Erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18037406583478493064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-21666769742126084812009-10-10T21:29:23.267-07:002009-10-10T21:29:23.267-07:00Erp...like I said a good southerner enjoys any eat...Erp...like I said a good southerner enjoys any eating occasion. <br /><br />Would I go to an aniversary party? Like I stated before neighbors don't have to agree, but it would be rude not to come and I would have to offer to help with anything they needed. I mean it is just being neighborly.<br /><br />As far as an emergency situation..would I argue with the ambulance driver? Not my strong suit...would I drive my neighbor...I wouldn't even have to think twice about that, of course I would.<br /><br />Just becuase I believe homosexuality is a sin does not make me act like some uncivilized beast. I have learned from the Bible that I am to treat everyone as a loved child of God.<br /><br />You know that might be a great starting point. The arguement is not that we are christians, it starts with we are God's children. Start with God first then we can start finding common ground and move forward...together.Mary Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10978849622269965455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-50086199802876320392009-10-10T19:57:00.034-07:002009-10-10T19:57:00.034-07:00If they invited you to their wedding reception or ...If they invited you to their wedding reception or a party for their silver anniversary would you go?<br /><br />If one lost consciousness and the ambulance came but refused to let the other ride with them because he wasn't legally family, would you intervene in whatever legal manner you could (e.g., argue with the paramedics, drive the other to the hospital, argue with the hospital...).Erphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18037406583478493064noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-26214653224811375682009-10-10T18:29:14.258-07:002009-10-10T18:29:14.258-07:00So when we are confronted with the ethical questio...So when we are confronted with the ethical question of how to respond our gay neighbors…What would I do. Well first I think while they were moving in I would offer to help move, maybe make some cookies or a cake (we southerners are good for that). And would give them my number if they needed any additional help. Of course the subject of homosexuality usually does not show up first thing in a conversation. But if and only if they ask my opinion of gay marriage I would tell them frankly I disagree with it from a biblical stand point. But that does not change the my opinion of you in any way. I would not change who I am or the way I act because of someone being gay. <br /><br />Please tell a time when all neighbors had a perfect relationship…it doesn’t happen, but does not mean that you can not still be a good neighbor and disagree.<br /><br />Prejudices that exited in the bible…They were called Samaritans…The story of the Good Samaritan and the Woman at the Well (a Samaritan), they were some hated people in the bible. But that was a whole country. I am sure there are plenty of others that occurred at that time they are just recorded in another form of written history.Mary Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10978849622269965455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-12814517482246552572009-10-10T15:43:14.208-07:002009-10-10T15:43:14.208-07:00Ann gets the prize. And after all those words...Ann gets the prize. And after all those words...John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-29516878829278143452009-10-10T15:39:40.794-07:002009-10-10T15:39:40.794-07:00Ann is right. And the higher order moral standards...Ann is right. And the higher order moral standards that exist today but not back then do not show up in the Bible. It very much reflects the culture of the time in which it was written. Sometimes higher minded, sometimes lower minded, and all the time different minded.<br /><br />That's why there is no injunction against pedophilia or slavery, but there is also no prison sentence for doing wrong. <br /><br />There was a clear concern against plutocracy and violent oppression. <br /><br />We have given ourselves away to Plutocracy I am afraid. And Mars worship too, although we don't realize it. But just listen to our vocabulary and ask yourself if it is the vocabulary of Mars worship or is it the vocabulary of the Prince of Peace?Jodiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15447125159108080797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-69553650709579731452009-10-10T15:29:55.468-07:002009-10-10T15:29:55.468-07:00*claps*
Exactly Ann. You'd think we'd be...*claps*<br /><br />Exactly Ann. You'd think we'd be farther along by now, eh?Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-56176111026604456432009-10-10T14:41:47.074-07:002009-10-10T14:41:47.074-07:00Basically the Biblical sanctions against homosexua...Basically the Biblical sanctions against homosexuality just tell me that the same prejudices that exist today existed in Biblical times as well.Ann F.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-87043176741299426092009-10-10T13:08:19.074-07:002009-10-10T13:08:19.074-07:00Rule one: Love the Lord your God with all your hea...Rule one: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.<br />How do to this--self explanatory<br /><br />Rule two: Love your neighbor as yourself<br />How to do this--Repeat rule number one.<br /><br /><br />Mary, I'll give you credit for posting the real commandments. The average fundamentalist would have offered the Ten in an effort to avoid Jesus.<br /><br />For those who believe that The Gay(tm) is beneath them, I offer Matt: 25 36-40.<br /><br />There is very little that occurs in our lives that this lesson doesn't cover.captainkonahttp://ablogination.tn420.org/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-84188233178407807062009-10-10T12:53:14.938-07:002009-10-10T12:53:14.938-07:00"Alan, Jesus and the Apostles had the Torah a..."Alan, Jesus and the Apostles had the Torah as well as a large part of what we call the Old Testatment, especially Psalms and Isaiah."<br /><br />Thanks, I realize that. But the Torah is not the Bible, there's a rather large part missing at the end. ;)<br /><br />And there are plenty of folks on this planet who are moral people who are not Christians.<br /><br />So my point still stands.<br /><br />Anyway, as our conversations here clearly show, simply having a Bible on the nightstand hardly guarantees agreement on what the words in it actually mean.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-57002702224353155962009-10-10T12:00:51.553-07:002009-10-10T12:00:51.553-07:00" Love the Lord your God with all your heart ..." Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."<br /><br />What, dare I ask, does the Bible have to do with that? How many years before the Bible was written do you think God existed?Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.com