tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post6767067996203622017..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Presbyterians and the EnvironmentJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-59121684555249795342008-07-11T08:11:00.000-07:002008-07-11T08:11:00.000-07:00Well, Rachel, your choices are bureaucrats account...Well, Rachel, your choices are bureaucrats accountable to the voters or bureaucrats accountable to the shareholders. Neither system is perfect, but I prefer the one in which I have a voice.<BR/><BR/>I don't agree that representative democratic government that is responsive to the needs of its citizenry is immoral.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-21967737898907898252008-07-10T13:35:00.000-07:002008-07-10T13:35:00.000-07:00All right, I have nothing to say to that, but you ...All right, I have nothing to say to that, but you haven't changed my opinion about big government being immoral.Rae-Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10689602117000934898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-67802062051075608952008-07-10T12:46:00.000-07:002008-07-10T12:46:00.000-07:00Well, for starters, the overture does NOT advocate...Well, for starters, the overture does NOT advocate "legislation that would hand more control over to the top 1%". If anything, decentralization of energy production is a huge boom to ordinary individuals. For example, in Germany, the government subsidizes a program whereby you get a low-interest loan to put solar collectors on the roof of your house, and then the local utility buys back any excess electricity you produce at the market rate. This also encourages energy conservation, since the less power you use for lighting your house, the more money you get from the power company. Over several years of this, the German government has been able to cancel plans for a new nuclear reactor. That's handing control over to ordinary homeowners.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, there are places in the US where farmers and cattlemen are paid to lease space for windmills, which have a tiny physical footprint on the land and don't disrupt their growing or pasturing. That's handing control over to ordinary landowners.<BR/><BR/>Now, I agree that the cap-and-trade model may not be the most effective way to curb greenhouse gas emissions, but it's the most realistic way to do it in a capitalist framework. It limits the amount of greenhouse gases put into the atmosphere and encourages companies to reduce their emissions by providing a dual profit motive: one to get a new revenue stream by selling carbon credits, the other by providing an incentive to avoid having to buy carbon credits from competitors. <BR/><BR/>The most direct way to get a reduction (and the least palatable to most Americans) would be simple government fiat. If the government passes a single, uniform standard with fines for noncompliance, then every company is put at an equal disadvantage. Corporations can be sued by their stockholders if they can prove that the officers are not acting to maximize their return on investment. That means that corporations cannot act out of pure beneficence; any charitable act has to be justified in terms of how it improves the bottom line (usually in terms of generating goodwill among consumers). A government regulation lets corporate officers off the hook in this regard, because they have no choice but to abide by the laws of the place where they do business, and they can't be sued for complying with the law.<BR/><BR/>In order for that to work, however, the government needs to use its power to regulate trade by tariff. That way, if it cost a company $10 to make a product in compliance with US environmental standards, but $1 to make it in Berzerkistan (which has no environmental laws), then the government would slap a $9 tariff on the product. The company then has no incentive (and actually a disincentive due to transport costs) to produce the product abroad. We should also be doing this in regards to labor standards, but that's another discussion for another time. If we're not going to use the trade powers of the government, then the next best thing is cap-and-trade.<BR/><BR/>I'll point out that both China and India are signatories to the Kyoto Protocol. I also think we have to go Beyond Kyoto, and this has to happen anyway when the Kyoto Protocol expires in 2012. Last year, 12 countries (Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the UK, the US, Brazil, China, India and South Africa) agreed to the Washington Declaration, which proposes a new protocol that would require a global cap-and-trade system that would apply to countries like China and India.<BR/><BR/>The Kyoto Protocol is a means of implementing the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, the treaty agreed to at the 1992 Rio Summit. Almost every country in the world is a party to the treaty (the exceptions are Andorra, Iraq, Somalia, Taiwan and the Vatican--all but Taiwan are observers). The UNFCCC establishes the basis for dealing with global warming; Kyoto was the first plan of action to get there. We need another now, and this will likely be hammered out in Copenhagen next year.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-74536094533296442142008-07-10T09:30:00.000-07:002008-07-10T09:30:00.000-07:00"The Presbyterian Church (USA) is joining many oth..."The Presbyterian Church (USA) is joining many other churches to get a movement going along these lines in regards to care of creation."<BR/><BR/>That's great, but why are they helping to get legislation passed that would hand more control over to the top 1% of the wealthiest people in the world. The "cap and trade" policy that they promote will require that the U.S. and other major polluting nations make big cuts in emissions, all a while, China and other third world nations will continue to pollute. It's just another way for the owners of the world to exploit the resources in underdeveloped countries. It will kill the U.S. economy, force industries to move overseas, like to China, and drive up energy prices. Can you say anything to these concerns. Are they unfounded in your opinion? What about the other concerns I raised in my previous post?<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://www.democracynow.org/2007/11/1/carbon_trading_practical_solution_to_global" REL="nofollow">Here</A> is a transcript from DN! of an environmentalist who opposes carbon trading.Rae-Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10689602117000934898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-20243404063476831462008-07-10T08:10:00.000-07:002008-07-10T08:10:00.000-07:00Exactly how is a "small government" going to be ab...Exactly how is a "small government" going to be able to do anything? I don't think it was the Federal government that got us into this mess, at least not directly. It did sit idly by whilst certain advocates of "small government" (read: less regulation) trashed the environment.<BR/><BR/>Look, in many respects, the air and water of the United States is much cleaner than it was forty years ago (the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts are the only thing keeping Richard Nixon out of the deepest circle of Hell). That was because We the People got mad as hell at the sight of rivers on fire. And yes, it's "Big Government" that made it happen.<BR/><BR/>In a small-d, small-r democratic republic, Government is us. As the late, great Molly Ivins pointed out, as an American today, you have more political power in your little finger than 99% of all people who have ever lived on Earth. You have the right to state your opinion, the right to petition your government for redress of grievances, the right to run for office, and the right to throw the bums out. Are the odds stacked against the proverbial little guy? Yes, but it's largely a function of mathematics. Get a movement going, and any politician worth his or her salt will run to get out in front of it. The Presbyterian Church (USA) is joining many other churches to get a movement going along these lines in regards to care of creation.<BR/><BR/>To paraphrase somebody important, we are the ones we have been waiting for.<BR/><BR/>And yes, I'm that guy who has my member of Congress on speed dial.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-80976738064956661412008-07-09T08:10:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:10:00.000-07:00flycandler, I'm glad that you chimed in on this po...flycandler, I'm glad that you chimed in on this posting. I was hoping to hear your point of view.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad that you acknowledge that communism is at play in our world economic/political system. I recall Noam Chomsky who said something like the following, "The free market has never been tried, not even once." <BR/><BR/>I can't figure out how you can put so much faith in the leaders of the world (i.e. the plutocrats). Do you really think they will protect the little people's best interest or will they only look after their best interest?<BR/><BR/>What can you say to the accusation that the leaders from the G8 nations—Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia and the United States "are causing all the current problems, such as environment destruction and food crisis."<BR/><BR/>What about the G8 agenda on the food crisis? Do you really expect anything to come out when the G8 countries or the G8 governments caused the food crisis by their policies?<BR/><BR/>Oh, and do you support a new green revolution based on genetically modified organisms, seeds, in Africa, something else the G8 supports? This is just scary. <BR/><BR/>"In a nutshell, we as Christians have an obligation to tend to the Earth that God gave us."<BR/><BR/>I totally agree. What we disagree on is the way to go about it. I believe in small government, you think big government is best.<BR/><BR/>"We have to take action, and action now, to prevent large parts of the Earth from becoming uninhabitable and causing untold misery for millions--if not billions--of our neighbors."<BR/><BR/>Give me one good reason why I should trust the people who got us into the mess were in to get us out? <BR/><BR/><BR/>"This is the world your child will grow up in, and his children, and their children. We've only got the one planet."<BR/><BR/>Don't you think I realize this, and that is why I am trying to point out to people the real reason that I believe are putting our future at risk.<BR/><BR/>Please, please, watch this video on <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtzrqvPfnE0&feature=related" REL="nofollow">The truth about Big Government</A> and respond to it.Rae-Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10689602117000934898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-6783998351523573392008-07-09T07:37:00.000-07:002008-07-09T07:37:00.000-07:00Rachel, please calm down. The black helicopters a...Rachel, please calm down. The black helicopters are not coming. It's too expensive for the UN to refuel them anyway.<BR/><BR/>The family farm is a thing of the past in the United States. We now have agribusiness, with outfits like Con-Agra and Archer-Daniels-Midland now pretty much controlling American agriculture. There are arguments for and against. Small farmers competing against each other tend to get caught in erratic price fluctuations (Farmer Bob made more money off of soybeans last year, so everyone else plants soybeans this year and drives the price down, so next year no one plants soybeans and the price spikes). Years of this left many family farms broke and in debt, and one spell of bad weather gives us the Dust Bowl and the first few chapters of <I>The Grapes of Wrath</I>. On the other hand, we have instead of conscientious farmers tending land that has been in their family for generations, large corporate offices in Chicago (incorporated in Delaware) filled with board members whose sole obligation is to maximize the stockholders' return on investment. You get Monsanto patenting the DNA of crops so that farmers cannot legally take seed from their crops and replant (this is causing all kinds of havoc in India).<BR/><BR/>In other words, we have the best and worst of both capitalism and communism at work in American agriculture. Rather than the politburo controlling production, we have boards of directors doing it. Instead of bureaucrats ostensibly responsible to the voters (but not really), we have bureaucrats ostensibly responsible to the stockholders (but not really).<BR/><BR/>In a nutshell, we as Christians have an obligation to tend to the Earth that God gave us. We have to take action, and action now, to prevent large parts of the Earth from becoming uninhabitable and causing untold misery for millions--if not billions--of our neighbors. This is the world your child will grow up in, and his children, and their children. We've only got the one planet.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-75796561875414985932008-07-08T19:31:00.000-07:002008-07-08T19:31:00.000-07:00Rev. Shuck, the PC(USA) GA membership only adresse...Rev. Shuck, the PC(USA) GA membership only adresses the symptoms of today's climate problems. They make it sound like going green (i.e. GREEN CONSUMPTION) is the solution. WHEN the real problem cannot be fixed unless the global economic system changes. The PC (USA) supports the “cap and trade” approach and the G8 summit Kyoto Protocol. They say, <BR/><BR/>"In agreement with four prior General Assemblies (202nd, 210th, 211th, and 215th) that have called on the U.S. government to ratify the Convention on Climate Change and the Kyoto Protocol, we ask the U.S. government to do nothing less than repent of its efforts to block consensus and to work with the international community as it develops a binding agreement to replace the Kyoto Protocol when it expires in 2012."<BR/><BR/>This is just scary, don't you know this is going to give the superpowers (i.e. the top 1% of the richest corporations/political people in control) more power over the poor countries and peoples of the world. You really need to watch this edisode of <A HREF="http://www.democracynow.org/2008/7/8/environmental_groups_slam_g8_leaders_for" REL="nofollow">Democracy Now</A>. One of the activist yells out at the meting today:<BR/><BR/>"This is a meeting by world thieves. They, the G8 countries, are causing all the current problems, such as environment destruction and food crisis. That is why I am against them."<BR/><BR/>Did you know that rice paddies and livestock are a big threat to humanity because they produce methane gas? And that the G8, the world's 8 richest countries, wants to cede some control over the day-to-day policy and regulations of the American rice growers and cattle ranchers to United Nations bureaucrats. Is it good to handle our food supply this way? Wouldn't it be better to have local community farms here in America? Don't you see how easily we could all be killed off? What happens when our world food system fails? So yeah all this legislation that the PC(USA) is involved in scares the crap out of me. Before you join the collectivist bandwagon, maybe you could check out this <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMYicq_SN1E" REL="nofollow">video on the real debate of our times.</A>Rae-Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10689602117000934898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-58856167746034242862008-07-08T17:13:00.000-07:002008-07-08T17:13:00.000-07:00Hey Rachel!You got me. I do/did love George Carli...Hey Rachel!<BR/><BR/>You got me. I do/did love George Carlin. He is correct of course in the big scope of things. We homosapiens will be gone one day and we won't even register a hiccup as far as the Universe is concerned.<BR/><BR/>Except...we do live here now. This is home. And attempting to live sustainably is about human beings being here a bit longer than if we trashed the place--which will ultimately trash us.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-45211764203354700252008-07-07T21:00:00.000-07:002008-07-07T21:00:00.000-07:00Okay, you're going to hate me,..., but all that gr...Okay, you're going to hate me,..., but all that green s**t's making me tired. Here's a good one from <A HREF="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c&feature=related" REL="nofollow">George Carlin on Saving the Planet.</A> Please listen, and tell me what you think.Rae-Raehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10689602117000934898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-8473465610759235382008-07-07T19:39:00.000-07:002008-07-07T19:39:00.000-07:00Sadly, I think we already do.Sadly, I think we already do.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-69611098862003438662008-07-07T19:22:00.000-07:002008-07-07T19:22:00.000-07:00Dammit, John, when will Presbyterians learn to wor...Dammit, John, when will Presbyterians learn to worship the market like everyone else?Douglas Underhillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02215736448645573566noreply@blogger.com