tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post7338621733152001587..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Being SpecialJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-28590462984105630672007-08-29T18:50:00.000-07:002007-08-29T18:50:00.000-07:00I affirm that it is better that the Universe exist...<I>I affirm that it is better that the Universe exists, and that I and you exist, then not.<BR/><BR/>I think even in the scope of things, if life was reduced to cockroaches, that would be better than no life.<BR/><BR/>I begin with what I see in this incredible universe and I say, "Yes!"<BR/><BR/>I have a real problem with projecting everything good in humanity or the universe onto "God" and everything bad as "fallen" or "human."</I><BR/><BR/>John, I so agree with you. And it is my guess that God thinks that a universe with conscious, flawed beings who sometimes suffer is better than a universe of cockroaches, which is better than barren universe of lifeless nothing, which is better than no universe at all. Why else would God have brought the universe into being?Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-45116086035775927962007-08-29T17:17:00.000-07:002007-08-29T17:17:00.000-07:00Seeker,You ain't no minority. But even so, who ca...Seeker,<BR/><BR/>You ain't no minority. But even so, who cares? I appreciate your insights, as you know, and agree with them. And I am a Presbyterian/Reformed kind of guy, whatever that means.<BR/><BR/>Brass tacks, folks. <BR/><BR/>No Hell and no Heaven. This is life. It is what it is. How then, do we live? All of the doctrines of predestination, original sin, total depravity, and so forth. What really do they mean? <BR/><BR/>I am not bummin' on them, I just want to know. If this beautiful experience we call life is what it is, how do these doctrines help us?<BR/><BR/>I say like a broken record, if they help us to live with love, justice, and hope, then by all means believe them. But if they don't (and I have my doubts) then believe in something that will enable you to live with love, justice, and hope. <BR/><BR/>I affirm that it is better that the Universe exists, and that I and you exist, then not. <BR/><BR/>I think even in the scope of things, if life was reduced to cockroaches, that would be better than no life. <BR/><BR/>I begin with what I see in this incredible universe and I say, "Yes!"<BR/><BR/>I have a real problem with projecting everything good in humanity or the universe onto "God" and everything bad as "fallen" or "human." <BR/><BR/>However, if that is your theology, and it helps you to do good, then go for it. I choose the goodness of life and humanity. "God" or as one person I remember said, "The kingdom of God is within you." <BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>johnJohn Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-27381792348978978832007-08-29T10:59:00.000-07:002007-08-29T10:59:00.000-07:00Interesting that I've had a similar conversation b...Interesting that I've had a similar conversation before. Presbyterians are technically not universalists. IMO, this comes from (and I am dramatically oversimplifying) a human (and possibly even a scriptural) need for what I call "The Hitler Clause". We need the idea that Hitler (or whomever your favorite monster may be) is getting his just desserts in the afterlife (Hell, eternal death, etc.). Therefore, the number of people in what we call Heaven (everlasting life, etc.) has to be finite, even if it is (Everyone who ever existed) minus Hitler. We therefore assume that Jesus did not save Hitler; ergo, Jesus did not save everyone.<BR/><BR/>My own particular bit of heresy is that I like to think that Jesus was God's way to redeem humanity--all of humanity. I hate the idea of Hitler being in Heaven, but (and this is the crux of predestination) it's not my decision.<BR/><BR/>The practical upshot of the Calvinist brand of Reformed faith (which was after all a reaction to perceived excesses in the Roman Church) is that God through Christ has sorted out the afterlife for us. We need to stop obsessing over trying to save souls ourselves, because God will take care of it. Our assignment, as Jesus himself said, is to love God and neighbor. Calvinism at its core is a message to GET ON WITH IT ALREADY! Predestination is a complicated way to arrive at that conclusion.<BR/><BR/>I invite actual MOWS who have attended seminary to tear this apart.<BR/><BR/>As a postscript:<BR/>My pastor tells the story of two prominent ministers in Boston in the 19th century, one dyed-in-the-wool Calvin/Knox Presbyterian, the other a dyed-in-the-wool Wesleyan Methodist. The gentlemen would have frequent debates with each other over the merits of Calvinism (predestination) and Arminianism (free choice). One day, they decided that each would preach a single sermon from the other's pulpit. Come Sunday morning, they passed each other riding their horses. The Presby, being in a waggish mood, said "ah, Parson Brown, I see that God has predestined you to preach from my pulpit this fine morning!" The Methodist simply replied, "oh?", turned his horse around and rode home.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-74673908197737604422007-08-29T10:27:00.000-07:002007-08-29T10:27:00.000-07:00Slight orrection to what I just wrote. I don't be...Slight orrection to what I just wrote. I don't believe that God predestines anyone to a particular kind of afterlife or that anyone is "elect" in God's eyes. I'm an agnostic on the question of an afterlife, but I believe that if there is one, then I am a universalist. My theology isn't focused on an afterlife at all. So from my perspective, neither reformed views of the afterlife nor fundamentalist ones are particularly appealing.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-78675252548249407832007-08-29T10:21:00.000-07:002007-08-29T10:21:00.000-07:00Flycandle, I can't comment on why Presbyterianism ...Flycandle, I can't comment on why Presbyterianism hasn't caught on more, because I don't know why people ever make the choices they do, or why they are attracted to certain theologies. Given a choice between the fundamentalist concept of sinners going to hell because they didn't get around to accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, or the reform doctrine of predestination--well, I choose neither. I don't believe in hell, and I don't believe that God predestines anyone for anything. I have to admit that I never saw the appeal of predestination as a doctrine. But that's just me. Being surrounded by reform Christians in this blog community, I am obviously in a minority here.kMystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-3356881351189100402007-08-29T09:33:00.000-07:002007-08-29T09:33:00.000-07:00Great Idea! Except it willbe 102 degrees in Sacram...Great Idea! Except it willbe 102 degrees in Sacramento today!Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-44808364105084598452007-08-29T09:23:00.000-07:002007-08-29T09:23:00.000-07:00Viola wrote: I would recommend the book “Is The Fa...Viola wrote: I would recommend the book “Is The Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad? By Timothy George Founding Dean of Beeson Divinity School of Samford University.<BR/><BR/>I recommend y'all quit reading for a while and get outside! I'm heading out to hang laundry in the misty Appalachian breeze and play ball with my dog!"This is the day that the Lord hath made. Let us rejoice in it and be glad!"Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-17512140486720497612007-08-29T08:38:00.000-07:002007-08-29T08:38:00.000-07:00Flycandler,On the virgin birth of Jesus you are ri...Flycandler,<BR/>On the virgin birth of Jesus you are right, I am wrong, I think I was thinking of the deity of Christ.<BR/>However on the crucifixion of Jesus this is what the Qur’an states:<BR/>“And for their saying, ‘verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God.’ Yet they slew him not and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself. And God is Mighty, Wise. 4:157-158”<BR/><BR/>One Islamic scholar, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, has stated that the non-crucifixion of Jesus is “the one irreducible fact separating Christianity and Islam, a fact which is in reality placed there providentially to prevent a mingling of two religions.”<BR/><BR/>I would recommend the book “Is The Father of Jesus the God of Muhammad? By Timothy George Founding Dean of Beeson Divinity School of Samford University.Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-4142961525438352872007-08-29T07:45:00.000-07:002007-08-29T07:45:00.000-07:00Mystical, you said, "I'm sure that the fundies dif...Mystical, you said, "I'm sure that the fundies differ from reformed theology in ways that matter to people who believe in reformed theology. To an outsider like myself, the subtleties are just lost on me", which is a brilliant observation.<BR/><BR/>I think most fundies are unaware that their theology is so incredibly different from ours (by which I mean mine and John's and Bob's and Joanna's--the Presbyterian Church (USA)), hence the horror with which they greet an explanation of the doctrine of total depravity and how it is integral to predestination.<BR/><BR/>These differences may be subtle, but their impact is immense. It in short means that one either is on a lifelong campaign to personally save souls or welcomes others as part of a universal family of equals.<BR/><BR/>To jump on my high horse for a sec, one of the reasons I've always thought that Presbyterianism hasn't spread like wildfire in the US and other parts of the world (with exceptions like Scotland and Korea, which are very much the result of being in the right place at the right time) is that it is not a faith that provides easy answers and simple instructions. One does not say a "sinner's prayer" and make a conscious decision to Accept Christ as Personal Lord and Savior and instantly be granted salvation. In the mainline church in particular, we emphasize the freedom of conscience, which means a lot of thinking about complex issues. Traditional Presbyterian worship services are quiet and reverent, and encourage silent meditation and reflection. In a world increasingly focused on entertainment and instant gratification, this may not be the most attractive product on the market. Big, flashy megachurches that combine Pentecostal fervor with high tech projection systems, stadium seating, snack bar <I>in situ</I> and a take-home message that is direct and simple have a lot of appeal in this society.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, I do think that a sizeable portion of Christians tire of the constant 24/7 barrage of lights and sounds, and a moment to pause and listen for the quiet whisper of God has a lot of appeal. These are the folks who still attend mainline churches across the denominations. There is something to being able to participate in a ritual that links us with millennia of believers.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-24349843883268579822007-08-29T07:00:00.000-07:002007-08-29T07:00:00.000-07:00Thanks Fly,That is the essence of what I am gettin...Thanks Fly,<BR/><BR/>That is the essence of what I am getting at. Glad you are around to explain my cloudiness!<BR/><BR/>"I think I can speak for both John and myself when I say that neither of us thinks that ALL people who believe in a special revelation are destined to be killers. However, psychologically, they are more prone to being manipulated into becoming killers."John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-15416508955372016152007-08-29T06:52:00.000-07:002007-08-29T06:52:00.000-07:00Wow, Viola. We desperately need to educate folks ...Wow, Viola. We desperately need to educate folks on other religions.<BR/><BR/>The Quran specifically mentions that God gave Moses the Book (the Pentateuch or Torah) and sent the prophets to Israel, culminating in Jesus, son of Mary, whom God "strengthened with the Holy Spirit" (2.087). God is credited with the Torah and the Gospel, but the final revelation is that given to Mohammad (3.003). Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus (19.020). Jesus was crucified (4.157) but resurrected (raised up) by God (158), and Jesus will return on the Last Day (Judgement Day) to stand as witness against the wicked (159). He is the Jewish Messiah, but the idea of the trinity is explicitly rejected (171), as is the divinity of either Jesus or Mary. Jesus does proclaim the truth and way to salvation. Someone with these beliefs could conceivably pass most of the Fundamentals tests.<BR/><BR/>The problem that I and others are trying to point out is that people who die defending their special revelation from God become martyrs to others. Christians are NOT unique in this. The Islamic world sees, for a pretty stark example, the Crusades as a particularly brutal attack against Islam (and western accounts make the Crusaders look awful--ever hear of "kill them all and let God sort them out"?). To your typical Muslim, those who died at the hands of the Crusaders are thought of as having died for the sake of the final, special revelation of God. I think I can speak for both John and myself when I say that neither of us thinks that ALL people who believe in a special revelation are destined to be killers. However, psychologically, they are more prone to being manipulated into becoming killers.<BR/><BR/>Whether the victims in the extreme examples you gave thought they were dying for the faith isn't nearly as relevant as the motivations of the criminals who committed the acts. The Koreans in Afghanistan is a good illustration of this: they weren't kidnapped because they were Christians; they were kidnapped because they were obvious foreigners and therefore valuable as hostages. The Taliban got what it <A HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6968179.stm" REL="nofollow">wanted</A>--South Korea is pulling out its troops and non-military personnel. Incidentally, we should all give a prayer of thanks for the eight who were released today and continue to pray for the other 11.<BR/><BR/>While the Turkey incident is a little murkier (Christians in the area have been complaining about harassment), the fact that the publishing house was run by a German certainly had to have been a factor in the minds of the xenophobic nationalist thugs who murdered him. Again, the three victims were brutally murdered, but I have not seen any reporting saying that they were tortured.<BR/><BR/>We certainly need to be wary of anyone who is absolutely certain that he or she knows the mind of God and any who disagree are wrong and enemies of God. We certainly need to know what people of other faiths consider to be their special revelations so that if nothing else, we know where they're coming from.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-38366074528830486382007-08-29T06:23:00.000-07:002007-08-29T06:23:00.000-07:00people would much rather argue theology than talk ...<I>people would much rather argue theology than talk about our faith journeys</I><BR/><BR/>Well, I agree with snad; the quality of a post can't be judged by the number of comments; the faith journeys are good stuff too. Some threads, like this one, are more prone to debate and comments. Still, I'm playing catch up on the conversation threads, so I did just comment on your high school years post, which was very interesting; I tried to write a more high quality comment than the last one I gave John (teasing him about early musical tastes).Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13836922959782457029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-86123520645176217452007-08-29T04:44:00.000-07:002007-08-29T04:44:00.000-07:00I appreciate this recent exchange between Seeker a...I appreciate this recent exchange between Seeker and Aric and pleased that they are continuing to communicate as both are my internet pals. <BR/><BR/>Aric concludes his latest:<BR/>"Maybe fairy tales are true."<BR/><BR/>This reminded me of a book by Frederick Buechner, "The Gospel as Comedy, Tragedy, and Fairy Tale."<BR/><BR/>We need the stories and grand stories for hope and life. I think Aric's theology is far more nuanced and poetic than what mostly passes for reformed theology. <BR/><BR/>I wonder, and I am just thinking aloud, at what points in our grand theories of life--our theologies--do our fairy tales become real, concrete, incarnate in our lives.<BR/><BR/>Thank you all...John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-7525875883058210382007-08-29T01:00:00.000-07:002007-08-29T01:00:00.000-07:00Seeker,I certainly hope our conversation doesn't e...Seeker,<BR/><BR/>I certainly hope our conversation doesn't end on that note. I appreciate your willingness to take responsibility. Perhaps having worked through our discomfort we will find future disagreements easier to handle. I definitely don't want to leave it here though.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><I>"But really, Aric, what difference does it make to you what I think? I am not a Presbyterian, which makes me not a part of your religious community to begin with, and according to your own exclusionary definition of what a Christian is, I am not a Christian either. Perhaps it would be better if we just ignored each other."</I><BR/><BR/>What difference does it make to me? Well, you are right that I could ignore you and very little about my life would change, however, it seems to me that that is exactly the problem. From where I sit the gospel demands that I be continually open to others, continually vulnerable, and continually changing. I respect you and your opinions. Whether I've been successful at making you feel that way is another matter. I am often pedantic when I should be patient. The fact that you are not a Presbyterian is irrelevant to me (except as another piece of knowledge about you). I do not define myself as belonging to a Presbyterian tribe, or even a Christian tribe. I'm not sure what definition you're referring to that I have excluded you from being Christian with, but it was not my intent, and I apologize.<BR/><BR/>As for lambs living with lions, you're absolutely right - it's poetry. And what poetry does is express the inexpressible truth. I don't claim to know when or how, but it seems to me an inescapable conclusion of a belief in a good god, that the consummation of creation will reflect that purity perfectly. That isn't a scientific claim, it is a hope. It definitely sounds like a fairy tale. Maybe it is. Maybe fairy tales are true.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-31411745495367708902007-08-29T00:24:00.000-07:002007-08-29T00:24:00.000-07:00Aric, my use of the term "fairy tale" was probably...Aric, my use of the term "fairy tale" was probably more provocative than it needed to be, but there you have it. I was talking about this eschatalogical notion of lambs living with lions, or whatever it is you believe will take place in this future when nature will be free of suffering by God undoing 14 billion years of Divine activity in the world with a metaphorical wave of his hand. This kind of eschatalogical imagery makes for great poetry, and I love the imagery myself, but I would argue that it has nothing to do with reality. (The same, I would argue, goes for the belief in the literal resurrection.)<BR/><BR/>And for the record, I am not trying to turn theology into an empirical science. However, I am suggesting that theology that ignores the scientific realities of the world is not intellectually tenable. I believe that understanding of God's activity in the world is at least partly dependent on our understanding of how the world operates. The cosmology of the ancients informed what they wrote in the Bible, and the same factors come into play in our modern theologies. Put another way, I believe religion is not, or should not be, about naive acceptance of the absurd. <BR/><BR/>I take full responsibility for the fact that this conversation would have taken a different tone had you not seen the comment that I deleted. It is clearly my fault. I also have no doubt that I could have phrased my subsequent comments in a way that would have made for a better dialogue. Because of my religious background, much of which I still carry resentment towards, some of the things you have written have set off certain hot buttons for me. I wish I could more calmly discuss some of these issues, but a lot of the resentment that I feel against certain kinds of religious belief still lives with me. But really, Aric, what difference does it make to you what I think? I am not a Presbyterian, which makes me not a part of your religious community to begin with, and according to your own exclusionary definition of what a Christian is, I am not a Christian either. Perhaps it would be better if we just ignored each other.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-14186629403682585522007-08-28T20:50:00.000-07:002007-08-28T20:50:00.000-07:00Seeker,Appeals for respect are apparently lost on ...Seeker,<BR/><BR/>Appeals for respect are apparently lost on you so I will not repeat my request that you be more considerate in your remarks.<BR/><BR/>You said:<BR/><I>"I wish I could believe in fairy tales, but I don't. The world is what it is. The worst kind of eschatology, as far as I am concerned, is one that wants magical solutions that will just wish away our problems."</I><BR/>The Gospel is a fairytale my friend. The promises it makes are too good to be true. Faith and hope are Christian virtues however much you consider them worth mocking.<BR/><BR/><I>"But God isn't a magic genie. And this is dangerous magical thinking because it takes any responsibility for trying to solve the world's problems out of our hands. If it is all in vain, what's the point? Might as well wait for Armageddon and get it over with."</I><BR/>And yet the eschatology I've described in part here, and in more detail <A HREF="http://aricclark.blogspot.com/2006/09/end-introduction.html" REL="nofollow">here</A> is exactly what was behind the Civil Rights Movement. Far from being a motive for disengagement or sitting around doing nothing, a trust in God's action to bring about the kingdom is the best way of motivating people to work here and now for the betterment of the world. Without trust in God the enormity of the task leads to apathy.<BR/><BR/><I>"We are just one planet among billions, our sun is one star among billions, and everything in the universe shares the same physical laws. So we are to believe that God is suddenly going to undo what took 14 billions years, that produced a universe billions of light years in size, just so that our house won't fall on us in an earthquake? Have you forgotten that "nature" encompasses not just our little neighborhood in the universe?</I>"<BR/>Of course I haven't and to suggest that I have is insulting. God by definition must be beyond the entire created order. To look for empirical explanations of things that are inherently impossible to explain is a fools errand. Describe what was before the Big Bang? Or explain what it means to have every particle of matter contained in a singularity that is infinitely small? Beginnings and endings aren't a subject we can observe and describe. For someone to say that I trust the God revealed to me in Jesus Christ is good, and therefore the universe in its final consummation should reflect that isn't a scientific statement.<BR/><BR/><I>"It seems to me that this kind of nature is a leftover product of a primitive cosmology, the sort of cosmology that the writers of the Hebrew scriptures had, and a product of the Adam and Eve myths. It makes no sense whatsoever given what we know of the universe today. As an educated, intelligent person, you should know better.</I>"<BR/>When you read your own words over do they not strike you as unbelievably arrogant and lacking imagination? Do you really believe that anyone who disagrees with you must be a caveman? Where do you get the idea that Total Depravity or a robust Eschatology depends on a naive literalist reading of Genesis 2? <BR/><BR/><I>"The question arises as to why God would produce such a world, in which humans suffer. Any attempt at explaining human suffering has to account for the reality of the universe and its long evolution, not some fairy tale story about Adam and Eve.</I>" <BR/>Would you stop trying to turn theology into an empirical science? Of course theology deals with the way we understand the world, but it is not its job to explain natural phenomena. Theology is talking about God and reflects on the world only in relation to that.<BR/><BR/>Listen, this is a blog not a Confirmation Class. No one is trying to force you to subscribe to anything. In fact, I'm quite happy to have you disagree with every word I say, but you only aggravate people and do yourself a great disservice by imagining that anyone who thinks differently from you is a moron. You've consistently made broad generalizations and gaffes that reveal that you don't really understand Reformed theology, or why some people find it convincing. Try assuming that the person at the other end of the keyboard is a likeable, intelligent, learned individual with worthwhile convictions and then talk to them as though they were physically present. I have not always succeeded at this, but when I do, it always leads to more meaningful conversations.Aric Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15241157655075444268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-12965728061661028912007-08-28T19:21:00.000-07:002007-08-28T19:21:00.000-07:00"John, have you noticed that people would much rat..."John, have you noticed that people would much rather argue theology than talk about our faith journeys?"<BR/><BR/>Bob - Just because we don't talk about your blogs about your faith journeys doesn't mean we aren't enjoying them and learning from them - but what would you have us comment on? After all, there is no better authority on your life than you, although I dare say you - Pastor Bob, especially - might suggest that God is. However, since God has not deigned to Comment thus far, you are each of you yet delegated as the prime authority on your lives! And I pray you continue, for it does help us - who are in or around your respective congregations - understand you and the world you inhabitSnadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-79365126864039200212007-08-28T19:19:00.000-07:002007-08-28T19:19:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-7962227004838317192007-08-28T17:05:00.000-07:002007-08-28T17:05:00.000-07:00Wow, this is the 58th comment! John, have you not...Wow, this is the 58th comment! John, have you noticed that people would much rather argue theology than talk about our faith journeys?Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787179002120424157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-92169913190864794182007-08-28T16:15:00.000-07:002007-08-28T16:15:00.000-07:00Pastor Bob,**If none of us knows what God wants ho...Pastor Bob,<BR/><BR/>**If none of us knows what God wants how can we be sure that it is not a good idea to commit ecocide in the name of God?**<BR/><BR/>I didn't read this as God doesn't want us to commit ecocide, but rather since no one is 100% sure what God wants, it's a bad idea to do things in the name of God, especially harmful things. <BR/><BR/>Chris,<BR/><BR/>**Are you aware that there are a number of other words translated "sin" in the Bible that don't have to do with falling short (or some other privation)? **<BR/><BR/>But in thinking of a transgression, isn't that also falling short? Or evil? Anything that goes against the standard of good is essentially "falling short" of that standard.<BR/><BR/>I was just going with what the word "chatah" originally meant, and what it was metaphorically based on.OneSmallStephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08189124855157679020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-59952351717467124492007-08-28T15:17:00.000-07:002007-08-28T15:17:00.000-07:00Heather,Are you aware that there are a number of o...Heather,<BR/><BR/>Are you aware that there are a number of other words translated "sin" in the Bible that don't have to do with falling short (or some other privation)? For instance, a common word group for sin means <A HREF="http://cf.blueletterbible.org/isbe/isbe.cfm?id=8190" REL="nofollow">transgression</A>Chris Larimerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01770607122746467750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-82304335466957262642007-08-28T13:27:00.000-07:002007-08-28T13:27:00.000-07:00Flycandler,I think you may have missed my point. I...Flycandler,<BR/><BR/>I think you may have missed my point. I was saying that sometimes, for Christians, often holding on to special revelation creates violence against them. <BR/><BR/>I don't think you can just lump everything together and say all people who hold to special revelation do violence against others, which I think is what John and others, including you, are implying. <BR/><BR/>Yes, the young men, who did torture, were extreme Muslims. But the wife of one of the men forgave them and asked all Christians to pray for them that through this they might come to know Jesus Christ. And, yes, she believes in special revelation. <BR/><BR/>I am unaware that Islam holds the New Testament to be divinely inspired? I know that moderate Muslims do respect those who hold to a sacred book. But that is different than believing their books are inspired.<BR/><BR/>After all Muslims do not believe that Jesus died on the cross and they do not believe in the virgin birth.<BR/><BR/>Presbyterian belief does not exclude others from being the ones who lead others astray. And yes, God does have the power to save the flock. But even Paul was concerned for the sheep.<BR/><BR/>"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore be on the alert ... (Acts 20:28-31)."Viola Larsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09146967423654966140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-48485491550049996772007-08-28T13:14:00.000-07:002007-08-28T13:14:00.000-07:00Religious violence, be it from Muslims, Christians...<I>Religious violence, be it from Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, or whomever else, usually comes from a place of rigid belief in perfect divine revelations.</I><BR/><BR/>Christians for the past 2000 years have certainly not been exempt from this kind of violence, no matter how much one might be denial about it. I have pointed out before, and I'll point out again, that the great Reformed hero Calvin participated in the persecution and execution of Michael Servetus, who committed the crime of not conforming to orthodoxy Christian beliefs. Many of the defenders of the orthodoxy point to their own martyrs as almost a kind of proof of the greatness of one's own faith, while ignoring the martyrs that the orthodoxy has made of so-called heretics.<BR/><BR/>Not everyone who believes in special revelation engages in this kind of violence, of course. But the intolerance that is built into that kind of theology can easily lead to persecution of those who think differently.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-1159810210416279582007-08-28T13:06:00.000-07:002007-08-28T13:06:00.000-07:00The fundies (mostly Baptists and Pentecostals here...<I>The fundies (mostly Baptists and Pentecostals here) I talk to balk at the idea of total depravity because, as Bob said, it leads to predestination, and they CERTAINLY don't like that idea. The Baptist/Pentecostal theology hinges on personal decisions, from the freely chosen sin to the freely chosen salvation.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm sure that the fundies differ from reformed theology in ways that matter to people who believe in reformed theology. To an outsider like myself, the subtleties are just lost on me. But I'll take yours and Bob's word for it. I do think, though, that most fundies are pretty heavily focused on the quote from Paul that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" as the starting point of their theology. Their negativity about the human condition may be attributed to free will or the stain of Adam's sin or or something else, rather than some finely elaborated theory of total depravity, but either way it is the negativity that I find problematic.Mystical Seekerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10828225180668865911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-65810516344972085042007-08-28T12:57:00.000-07:002007-08-28T12:57:00.000-07:00flycandlerBeen meaning to ask you this:Is your pas...flycandler<BR/><BR/>Been meaning to ask you this:<BR/><BR/>Is your pastor Joanna Adams?Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07787179002120424157noreply@blogger.com