tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post7565160674654171828..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: The Responsibility of PrivilegeJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-73780208380189657442008-04-08T07:38:00.000-07:002008-04-08T07:38:00.000-07:00I'll just echo flycandler here, Grace.There are ma...I'll just echo flycandler here, Grace.<BR/><BR/>There are many vast theological differences between the Episcopal Church and Reformed, Calvinist denominations such as the PCUSA. One example I can think of is that Episcopalians believe in either consubstantiation or transubstantiation occurs during the Eucharist (apparently which one they believe in depends on who you talk to, as far as I can tell.) In any event, those ideas are often referred to by our Presbyterian forbearers as a most "damnable and persistent heresy" because they require Christ to be re-crucified each week during the Eucharist.<BR/><BR/>(And don't even get me started about the Bishopric, the anti-egalitarian nature of their polity, etc.)<BR/><BR/>Our church shares a building with an Episcopal church (the second oldest PCUSA/ECA partnership in the nation, as a matter of fact) and while I respect and admire their traditions (I even sat in on their confirmation classes, just to figure out what they believed since our congregations worship together on occasion) I'm definitely NOT an Episcopalian. Nor am I a Methodist, nor a Baptist for similar reasons -- they're simply wrong about some important points of theology.<BR/><BR/>It is unfortunate that Sunday Schools in all our churches do such a bad job at teaching people our foundational beliefs. If they did that, perhaps people would recognize that there are indeed still significant differences between denominations. I think that would eliminate a lot of confusion. Because, as we can see today, the fights in the PCUSA are mostly because a bunch of fundamentalists are mistaken about what constitutes orthodox Reformed theology. They were, at some point unfortunately, sold a false bill of goods and were falsely convinced that the the PCUSA is a fundamentalist rather than a historically Reformed, Calvinist denomination. That is, if they'd just go off and find the denomination to which they actually belong, we'd all be much happier, I suspect.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-13421490489148848062008-04-07T13:01:00.000-07:002008-04-07T13:01:00.000-07:00Perhaps, Grace, but there's a huge difference betw...Perhaps, Grace, but there's a huge difference between <I>Presbyterianism</I> and TEC (by which I'm assuming you mean The Episcopal Church).<BR/><BR/>Being a Presbyterian actually means two things: one's polity is Reformed (which the Episcopals are technically not), and one's government is Presbyterian (as opposed to the hierarchical Anglicans). The recent kerfuffle in the Episcopal Church is not over whether GLBT people can be ordained as Priests, but whether one could be elevated to the ecclesiastical office of Bishop (another term that gets Reformed hackles up--the rallying cry of the Presbyterians at Westminster was "no Bishop and no King!"). A Bishopric is a permanent office with hierarchical privileges. In our system (which is shared by the Church of Scotland and even the hyperconservative American splinters), even the "highest" position in the church, the Moderator of the General Assembly, is a temporary position, and her powers are strictly parliamentary. At the local level, we elect our own leadership to the Session and pick our own pastors. The Episcopal Church (and the greater Anglican community for that matter) don't do that. It can be a highly fractious means of government, but I still think it's better than any other that have been tried.<BR/><BR/>No, the solution to getting the PC(USA) into the 21st Century, kicking and screaming, is not for a mass exodus of The Gay. Believe me, the Cons have tried. The time for compromise (as embodied in the PUP Report) is probably long gone now. It's time to do what's right for God's church.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-63168670738351999652008-04-03T18:42:00.000-07:002008-04-03T18:42:00.000-07:00I understand, Fly. Although, from what I can see t...I understand, Fly. Although, from what I can see there are plenty of Calvinists in TEC. It's a pretty "big tent." :)<BR/><BR/>If I want to get some sense of where people are at spiritually, I'll usually ask if they were reared in the church, or to share how they came to faith in Christ.Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-15118713881454329652008-04-03T14:07:00.000-07:002008-04-03T14:07:00.000-07:00Hey Cecilia,"But I also feel that it might be bett...Hey Cecilia,<BR/><BR/>"But I also feel that it might be better for my soul to find out, once and for all, what kind of congregation it really is that I serve."<BR/><BR/>Sometimes you gotta go for soul! I think you will find that you have all kinds of support and in surprising places. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Thanks, Hidden and welcome!!John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-90679831707354294422008-04-03T11:59:00.000-07:002008-04-03T11:59:00.000-07:00i just wanted to say thank you so much for your po...i just wanted to say thank you so much for your post. it is so encouraging to know there's people out there like you. standing up for what Jesus would've stood up for.Hidden in Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12662247208014689374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-30534692025420236042008-04-03T08:35:00.000-07:002008-04-03T08:35:00.000-07:00For many of us, Grace, it comes down to the fact t...For many of us, Grace, it comes down to the fact that there are real doctrinal reasons that people choose one denomination over another, particularly Presbyterianism.<BR/><BR/>As a Calvinist with a penchant for neo-orthodoxy, I would be out of place in most other denominations. I get incredibly uncomfortable during altar calls. I hate getting asked "are you saved?" and "when were you saved?" (my pastor has a great response to the latter--she says "when Jesus was crucified. This promise was sealed in the waters of my baptism when I was a baby girl.").<BR/><BR/>God help me, I love the Presbyterian Church. I love its dedication to scholarship and study, I love the style of worship (though I tend to a bit of closet Anglicanism), and I love how, when we're at our best, a big family that doesn't get along all the time, but dammit, determined to love each other.<BR/><BR/>The question shouldn't be about which non-Presbyterian denominations gay clergy should go to. I think creating a new Presbyqueerian denomination is a bad idea. I still firmly believe that (at least as far as I'm concerned), the push for social justice begins here in the PC(USA). I am not a United Methodist, an ELCA Lutheran, an Episcopalian, a UCC Congregationalist, an American Baptist, or a Roman Catholic. These folks have to come to grips with their denominations' issues themselves. I got my own little patch of grass to work on.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-90075744592560750772008-04-03T08:03:00.000-07:002008-04-03T08:03:00.000-07:00But, Cecilia, if it comes to that..God forbid!! Wh...But, Cecilia, if it comes to that..God forbid!! Why leave the ordained ministry if it's what God has called you to do?<BR/><BR/>Have you considered the possibility of pursuing orders in another more affirming Christian denomination such as the UCC or TEC?Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17018475588969974790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-82495971807999730832008-04-03T05:04:00.000-07:002008-04-03T05:04:00.000-07:00John, thank you for this post. You are most gracio...John, thank you for this post. You are most gracious. I agree in large measure with what you have said. I will also paste here my response from over at my place.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate the distinction you make between those with the privilege of the position. I agree and understand. But I also feel that it might be better for my soul to find out, once and for all, what kind of congregation it really is that I serve. My judgment is that I may be able to do that by beginning these "new initiatives." If it is a congregation who, on the whole would be retching at the thought that it's been a lesbian in their pulpit all this time... it might be better for me to "try plumbing" (as a college professor was known to tell people he thought didn't belong in his department).<BR/><BR/>Here is where I have my privilege: I am of European ancestry, I have money in the bank and in investments, I own my home without a mortgage. Of course, money can disappear quickly with a major illness or if one does not have gainful employment. But I do not believe that I should fear the loss of my ordination credentials as much as I do.<BR/><BR/>It's just that I love it so, that i feel so deeply called to it. It's just that my heart might break. But you know what they say about the Lord... Godde heals the broken-hearted, and binds up their wounds. So I have assurance, even if I did lose this call I love, that God would find a way to fix me and set me right again.<BR/><BR/>And, of course, you are welcome to link to me. I'm honored.<BR/><BR/>Pax. C.Ceciliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10812791378130572065noreply@blogger.com