tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post8228890406505175695..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Covenant Network ConferenceJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-87861454874183951772008-11-10T09:50:00.000-08:002008-11-10T09:50:00.000-08:00Ah, yes. Of course. Sorry. I somehow got off ta...Ah, yes. Of course. Sorry. I somehow got off target and was thinking about US governmental legislation, not US(PCS).Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-976288962488644202008-11-10T07:41:00.000-08:002008-11-10T07:41:00.000-08:00Snad--The legislation is already on the table. It ...Snad--The legislation is already on the table. It is up for a vote now in our presbyteries. It was no easy matter to get it to this point. Some allies (one on record, I guess) think presbyteries should vote no action which is essentially no. Which at this stage of development, as Ray points out, is truly bizarre. <BR/><BR/>This is what CovNet has been fighting for. It is the reason it exists in the first place to remove or change this section in the Book of Order. <BR/><BR/>Some appear to be getting cold feet at the last second. <BR/><BR/>Ray--<BR/><BR/><I>Protecting part of a document over any part of God's creation is where it all begins to spin out of control.</I><BR/><BR/>Well put. This piece that needs change has only been in the constitution since 1997! It isn't as if it has been in there forever. <BR/><BR/>There is motivation that now and then gets stated. It goes like this: if we work to change G-6 and it doesn't pass we will look bad. It is a fear of losing I guess. Personally, I would rather love and lose than never love at all.<BR/><BR/>This isn't about fighting and beating people to a pulp. This is an action of love on behalf of the gospel. It is putting the gospel into action. <BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment and for your voice, too!John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-74195395011732030782008-11-10T06:25:00.000-08:002008-11-10T06:25:00.000-08:00" If people are grossed out by gay sex (for if two..." If people are grossed out by gay sex (for if two men did not have sex I am not so sure it would be a big deal at all)"<BR/><BR/>Which is why people should be *for* gay marriage.<BR/><BR/>I once heard Mel White in a radio interview. A caller asked him what he and his partner did in bed. The radio host was going to cut off the caller, but Mel answered the question. I'm just paraphrasing, but it was something like, "We're 65 years old, we've been together for 20 years. What do we do in bed? We sleep."Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-88533221511657765682008-11-10T00:11:00.000-08:002008-11-10T00:11:00.000-08:00Hi John - Thanks for your posting and for your ste...Hi John - <BR/><BR/>Thanks for your posting and for your steadfast voice. <BR/><BR/>I agree with you, Tricia, and many others that G-6.0106b in its current form needs to go. It is still hard for me to accept that after all this, there are still some who recommend a "no vote" on the ratification that is in the presyteries, at the moment. <BR/><BR/>Yet, when I think about it, it shouldn't be a surprise. Part of the prolonged marginalization of LGBT/Q folks has been the unwillingness of some of the "supporters/leaders" to change the constitution on behalf of our community. Protecting part of a document over any part of God's creation is where it all begins to spin out of control.<BR/><BR/>This will be a truly remarkable year if we can finally "delete b," as we know it and begin knocking on the inner doors of true welcoming and healing for all.<BR/><BR/>Peace, and thanks!<BR/>Ray BagnuoloRay Bagnuolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15163509718652353912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-26945076051637718512008-11-09T21:31:00.000-08:002008-11-09T21:31:00.000-08:00Well, the thing is that legislators are not going ...Well, the thing is that legislators are not going to put themselves out front of the people. They want their constituents to "show them the money" before they put their reputations in danger for something that they feel affects so few people. This is why conversation - and lots of it - in the ranks is necessary.Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-19931294046551005812008-11-09T19:35:00.000-08:002008-11-09T19:35:00.000-08:00gay people are not "crooked" or "bent" as opposed ...<I>gay people are not "crooked" or "bent" as opposed to straight).</I><BR/><BR/>We could call ourselves "breeders."<BR/><BR/>We need to keep the conversation going and open up avenues for that. <BR/><BR/>My disagreement with some of my allies is that conversation is not a substitute for legislative action.<BR/><BR/>Only with legislation on the table is there incentive for conversation. <BR/><BR/>In fact, there will only be real conversation when discriminatory policies are removed.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-83581314670503959632008-11-09T19:24:00.000-08:002008-11-09T19:24:00.000-08:00Keep talking. The elephant in the room is that LGB...Keep talking. The elephant in the room is that LGBT/Q people are an affront to the "American way of life" and I think that this is the kind of language that is bleeding into the church. People are simply grossed out by male/male sex and are afraid of it. My wife and I are more convinced of this.<BR/><BR/>I think we need to step back and ask ourselves why we get married at all. Do we do it for sex? Do we do it to pro-create? Do we do it for intimacy? As you and I know, gay people want to get married for the same reasons that straight people do (and that distinction is more and more offensive to me by the way...gay people are not "crooked" or "bent" as opposed to straight).<BR/><BR/>I think Johnson's book A Time to Embrace is the kind of discussion we simply need to continue to force people to have. If people are grossed out by gay sex (for if two men did not have sex I am not so sure it would be a big deal at all), we need to talk about that and come to an understanding of why that is so. When we discuss more, we learn more. When we learn more we accept more because we change.<BR/><BR/>We need to be open and frank about sexual desire as a church. Sex is beautiful, but the church has has a view of it that it is private and to be repressed.Drew Tatuskohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12344192935890766744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-9625442577427624782008-11-09T19:01:00.000-08:002008-11-09T19:01:00.000-08:00True for sure.So what is the tireless love and jus...True for sure.<BR/><BR/>So what is the tireless love and justice response that is needed?John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-82956942514019405222008-11-09T18:51:00.000-08:002008-11-09T18:51:00.000-08:00Justice and love never grow weary my friend.Justice and love never grow weary my friend.Drew Tatuskohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12344192935890766744noreply@blogger.com