tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post839289715829891817..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: More Reflections on the Film and DiscussionJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-78151655815498078122008-04-26T20:10:00.000-07:002008-04-26T20:10:00.000-07:00Thanks Doug, and welcome!Thanks Doug, and welcome!John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-41099755057032290032008-04-26T15:26:00.000-07:002008-04-26T15:26:00.000-07:00I'm am proud of Andy Oliva and the faculty of Mill...I'm am proud of Andy Oliva and the faculty of Milligan for supporting the presentation of "the bible tells me so." It is the first time in my memory where Milligan and any organization associated with the independent Christian church took a proactive position in support of a philosophy of openness regarding LGBT issues. <BR/>I am a minister and a counselor. I am straight and I have two gay brothers in my family. I love the gospel of Christ and I hate fundamentalism. I am glad that the students at Milligan had an open educational opportunity to learn a new perspective on LGBT issues. The grace of God is big enough to accept all people. I embrace open theism, a theological belief that says that God has not predestined the future. Instead God invites us to author the future with good choices. Choices taht are pleasing to Him. Choices that accept and acknowledge who we are, whether we are gay & lesbian or straight. <BR/><BR/>The research on heredity and sexual orientation in identical twin studies indicate that heredity accounts for more than 50% of sexual/affectionate orientation; the rest is experiential and social learning. I respect the fact that heredity significantly influences sexual/affectional orientation I also believe that choice if a factor; a difficult choice. I appauld those who are brave enough to accept their sexual/affectionate orientation in the face of persecution and homophobia. I pray that we can learn to love each other as Christ loved us... Sacrificially and without conditions.<BR/><BR/>DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09790064360545723220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-86120915694858623182008-04-25T09:12:00.000-07:002008-04-25T09:12:00.000-07:00"I would like to be able to hit that nail squarely..."I would like to be able to hit that nail squarely on the head a little better."<BR/><BR/>Heterosexual marriage has been around a lot longer than gay marriage. During that time, we've seen unfortunately all sorts of examples of polygamy, incest, etc. The best explanation I can come up with is that heterosexual marriage causes polygamy and incest. I mean, if we're just going to make a silly correlational argument, which is what that is, why not make the right silly correlational argument? :)<BR/><BR/>Seriously though, I agree with John that it isn't my "job" to make an argument against polygamy just so that I can get gay-married. I'm not interested in polygamy (I already do too much ironing.) At the same time I'm pretty sure that the folks in the FLDS "church" weren't waiting for Massachusetts to allow gay marriage so they could have their little polygamy cult: "Ah, finally! the gays can get married, so now we can marry as many 14 year olds as we please! Woo hoo!" <BR/><BR/>There have always been, and will always be people who engage in various things like polygamy, etc. Having no legalized gay marriage has never stopped that. Legalizing gay marriage isn't going to change it either.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-90307646947391329792008-04-25T07:56:00.000-07:002008-04-25T07:56:00.000-07:00Drew, I think the most obvious answer to your ques...Drew, I think the most obvious answer to your question is the fairly recent case of both divorcees and women (and divorced women).<BR/><BR/>There's a scriptural basis for the exclusion of divorced people from ministry (1 Tim 3, etc.) and certainly to exclude women (1 Cor 14, 1 Tim 2-3, Tit 1, etc.). I won't rehash all the arguments, but needless to say, the mainline church overcame its squeamishness and slippery slope naysayery to the point that the Westminster Confession had to be amended.<BR/><BR/>Look at it this way: the Bible does not speak clearly of particular women in the ministry (other than passing references in Paul, though I would argue--and for my LCMS grandmother, unsuccessfully--that Mary Magdalene and crew were just as much ministers as any of the apostles), but when it does speak about the topic, appears to condemn it. Similarly with divorcees: we have no examples in the Bible of a divorced person in the ministry. When it does talk about the idea of divorcees as ministers, it condemns it.<BR/><BR/>I don't buy the "well, the Bible doesn't talk about same-sex relationships, therefore they cannot be acceptable to God" argument. There's a LOT not mentioned in the Bible, <I>por ejemplo</I> human flight. The church condemned da Vinci for his aeronautical work, because of this Biblical silence issue and also a good old Natural Law argument ("if God had meant for man to fly, He would have given him wings").<BR/><BR/>I realize that these examples won't be convincing to a Catholic, members of Protestant conservative splinters (PCA, OPC, LCMS, WELS etc.), the Southern Baptists, Mormons, and most Pentecostals. Yes, we ordain women (horrors!), allow those in the ministry to marry (atrocities!), and even to divorce (AAAAAAAAAA!).<BR/><BR/>But they will likely be convincing to a mainline Protestant (particularly PC(USA), Episcopal, ELCA, UMC, UCC, AME, etc.).Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-27435732468562696652008-04-25T07:10:00.000-07:002008-04-25T07:10:00.000-07:00Thanks Drew,I gotcha. Moth to flame. For some re...Thanks Drew,<BR/><BR/>I gotcha. Moth to flame. For some reason I understand that : )John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-66994920738206157352008-04-25T07:09:00.000-07:002008-04-25T07:09:00.000-07:00Thanks John.I do agree that any slippery slope sho...Thanks John.<BR/><BR/>I do agree that any slippery slope should not limit the need for justice now.<BR/><BR/>But when I do engage in arguments with non-affirming types (I do so intentionally like moth to flame) I would like to be able to hit that nail squarely on the head a little better. It's really an effort to stop the slippery slope position before it gets rolling down the hill in order to legitimate discrimination.<BR/><BR/>Peace.Drew Tatuskohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12344192935890766744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-18732202493473964742008-04-24T21:38:00.000-07:002008-04-24T21:38:00.000-07:00"I am sure that figuring out appropriate sexual mo..."I am sure that figuring out appropriate sexual mores is a fine thing to do. I don't, however, think it is the responsibility of gay people to provide all the answers for us, nor should their treatment as equal citizens have to wait until we figure out all of this, if we ever will."<BR/><BR/>Bingo!Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-60224183564965376282008-04-24T19:00:00.000-07:002008-04-24T19:00:00.000-07:00Drew,I think I may have overshot on your question....Drew,<BR/><BR/>I think I may have overshot on your question. I said I have plenty of resources, and you asked for one in particular. <BR/><BR/>Sorry.<BR/><BR/>My hunch is that you know resources regarding sexual ethics more than I do. <BR/><BR/>But for others here are some that I have found helpful, whether they deal or not with your question, I don't know:<BR/><BR/>Marie Fortune: Love Does No Harm<BR/><BR/>Kathy Rudy, Sex and the Church <BR/><BR/>Marvin Ellison: Same-sex Marriage? A Christian Ethical Analysis<BR/><BR/>Ellison: Body and Soul: Rethinking Sexuality as Justice-Love<BR/><BR/>Let me look further...<BR/><BR/>It appears that I may need to list a bibliography somewhere.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-46832650535805798982008-04-24T18:43:00.000-07:002008-04-24T18:43:00.000-07:00Thanks Snad, very well put.Drew:"Finally, one piec...Thanks Snad, very well put.<BR/><BR/>Drew:<BR/><BR/>"Finally, one piece that bothers me from the Biblical standpoint is that there is a relative silence on the matter regarding lgbt affirmation in properly ordered relationships and its relationship to practices such as brother/ sister incest and polygamy."<BR/><BR/>I am sure that figuring out appropriate sexual mores is a fine thing to do. I don't, however, think it is the responsibility of gay people to provide all the answers for us, nor should their treatment as equal citizens have to wait until we figure out all of this, if we ever will. <BR/><BR/>The focus of this film, and frankly, one particular focus of my ministry, is to uncover the prejudice that is fueled by church and bible, to support lgbts and their families, and to advocate for equal rights. <BR/><BR/>This doesn't mean that your questions are not important, it is just that there is often the slippery slope paranoia that stalls justice until everything is supposedly solved.<BR/><BR/>You aren't making that argument, Drew, but I think we can be immobilized by it. <BR/><BR/>I say that if people are really concerned about polygamy or incest, and refuse to grant lgbts freedom from violence, loss of employment, benefits of marriage, etc., then everyone should have no sex or marriage until we solve it. <BR/><BR/>Finally, I see no benefit going to the Bible for answers on how we are to structure our relationships in any specific way. Who is a good model, Jacob (with a pair of wives and their slaves) or celibate, homophobic Paul? <BR/><BR/>It will take all of us to figure out how to treat one another with justice and care.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-25877866998002931862008-04-24T17:57:00.000-07:002008-04-24T17:57:00.000-07:00We had a showing and a discussion at my small Cath...We had a showing and a discussion at my small Cathlic college as well. While we liked the perspective from the familes a lot, some of us wanted a deper discussion of the biblical warrants for anti-lgbt sentiment as well as a more nuanced presentation of the position that holds that the Bible says nothing about properly ordered homosexual relationships.<BR/><BR/>Finally, one piece that bothers me from the Biblical standpoint is that there is a relative silence on the matter regarding lgbt affirmation in properly ordered relationships and its relationship to practices such as brother/ sister incest and polygamy. For instance, I think William Stacy Johnson's rather standard argument for affirmation opens that door wide open, but then he does nothing to shut it.<BR/><BR/>Do you know of anyone who argues for welcoming and affirming lgbt relationships in the church that also places it a wider context of other sexual practices? I ask this not just for tightening an argument for affirmation (which I am) but also I think it is important to be clar about this especially in the mission field where homosexuality might be condemned in many cultures, but forms of incest and polygamy are clearly justified on biblical grounds.Drew Tatuskohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12344192935890766744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-49268676233316168812008-04-24T16:23:00.000-07:002008-04-24T16:23:00.000-07:00As someone who has not grown up in the church, I w...As someone who has not grown up in the church, I was fascinated by this movie. It is alien to me - or at least requires abstract thinking on my part - to see how so many of these people were devastated when their loved one came out to them. I've been devastated by news myself - "your father's been in a car accident", "your friend hung himself", "I don't love you anymore", "the cancer's back and I'm not going to chemo anymore", but "I'm gay" doesn't fall into that category. I don't know if it is because of the lack of Christian upbringing or what, but that kind of crushing, life-changing sense of panic has never been a reaction for me. So, with that in mind, this movie was a great opportunity for me to gain som einsight, to learn how to empathize with people who DO find it devastating, and to offer comfort in the right way. <BR/>And it doesn't hurt to be able to ask the right kind of challenging questions to people who unthinkingly thrust the nebulous "It's in Scripture" argument at me. <BR/><BR/>I'm not a Bible scholar and have no inclination to become one, but this film does provide some ammunition to admonish others to at least look for themselves before they attempt to ruin someone's life. <BR/><BR/>It was also my first experience watching Jimmy Swaggart. Every time he came on the screen I felt like something was stomping on my chest; they weight of his hatred and anger staggered me. How anyone can look at him as a Christian completely escapes me. But they do. Those are the people we will never reach, and I don't want to waste any time trying. I would much rather spend time with good folks like those at Milligan who have opened their hearts in an attempt to open their minds about others.Snadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04055786911610974637noreply@blogger.com