tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post8532234738273993840..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: A Response by Rev. Dr. Benjamin Harrison TaylorJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-57909031588953641302007-09-06T12:36:00.000-07:002007-09-06T12:36:00.000-07:00Ooooooh! I just taught a MOWS something about the...Ooooooh! I just taught a MOWS something about the <I>Book of Confessions</I>, and Westminster at that! ;-)Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-30164469073437313482007-09-05T13:48:00.000-07:002007-09-05T13:48:00.000-07:00Wow, I'm going to have to brush up on my Westminst...Wow, I'm going to have to brush up on my Westminster! I knew the Book of Order quote but didn't know it came from Westminster.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-44878645165232956782007-09-05T07:16:00.000-07:002007-09-05T07:16:00.000-07:00"God alone is Lord of the conscience" is from the ..."God alone is Lord of the conscience" is from the WCF. The entire paragraph from the Westminster Confession as used in our <I>Book of Confessions</I> (emphasis added):<BR/><BR/>"God alone is <B>Lord of the conscience</B>, and hath left it <B>free from the doctrines and commandments of men</B> which are in anything contrary to his Word, or beside it in matters of faith or worship. So that to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commandments out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the <B>requiring an implicit faith</B>, and<BR/>an <B>absolute and blind obedience</B>, is to <B>destroy liberty of conscience, and reason</B> also."<BR/><BR/>One of the cleverest moves of the Westminster Divines (the men who wrote the Confession back in the 1600s) was this disclaimer. It notes that earthly doctrinal statements, <B>even the Westminster Confession itself</B>, are man-made and therefore subject to human error. One of the best examples in American Presbyterianism is the 1788 revision that removed the power granted the civil magistrate (i.e., H.M. George III) to enforce church doctrine.<BR/><BR/>Taken with any degree of seriousness, the WCF and other confessions are living documents and can be interpreted or amended as the Spirit guides our understanding as a church. IMO the WCF outlines the doctrinal basis for the principle of scruples, something that we as Presbyterians should cherish. We are reformed, ever being reformed, after the Word (John 1.14) of God.Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-78543657985150387532007-09-04T21:39:00.000-07:002007-09-04T21:39:00.000-07:00flycandlerFirst, thanks for getting the WHOLE lati...flycandler<BR/><BR/>First, thanks for getting the WHOLE latin quote. To many people leave out the according to the Word of God part.<BR/><BR/>Second, the "God alone is Lord of conscience comes from the Historical Principle of Church Government. The whole quote in context reads:<BR/><BR/>(1) (a) That “God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men4 which are in anything contrary to his Word, or beside it, in matters of faith or worship.” <BR/>(b) Therefore we consider the rights of private judgment, in all matters that respect religion, as universal and unalienable: We do not even wish to see any religious constitution aided by the civil<BR/>power, further than may be necessary for protection and security, and at the same time, be equal and common to all others.<BR/>(2) That, in perfect consistency with the above principle of<BR/>common right, every Christian Church, or union or association of<BR/>particular churches, is entitled to declare the terms of admission<BR/>into its communion, and the qualifications of its ministers and<BR/>members, as well as the whole system of its internal government<BR/>which Christ hath appointed; that in the exercise of this right they may, notwithstanding, err, in making the terms of communion<BR/>either too lax or too narrow; yet, even in this case, they do not<BR/>infringe upon the liberty or the rights of others, but only make an<BR/>improper use of their own.<BR/><BR/>We Presbyterians are always about balance.Pastor Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10510081361292855641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-83961505056511584212007-09-04T06:51:00.000-07:002007-09-04T06:51:00.000-07:00Very nice to hear from Dr. Taylor.I have not atten...Very nice to hear from Dr. Taylor.<BR/><BR/>I have not attended John Shuck's church, but from what I can gather, those who are in his congregation and those who are professional colleagues who actually work with him like him and have a deep respect for him, though they may not necessarily agree with what he says from time to time. Shock and horror--a pastor who says something that others might not agree with! Whoda thunk?<BR/><BR/>I congratulate both John and Bob for "Conversations with Bob" for showing how dialogue over controversial issues within the PC(USA) <I>should</I> happen.<BR/><BR/>From what I can gather, John's approach to ministry (or at least preaching--he seems to be top-notch when it comes to pastoral care and building up his church in the community) is to ask difficult questions and <I>not</I> provide easy answers. I would imagine this helps his congregation to be a thoughtful one. If there's anything we need in the PC(USA) and the nation at large, it's more careful discernment.<BR/><BR/>At present, I hold no ecclesiastical office and am just an uppity member of the PC(USA) in a small (but rapidly growing!) congregation in Atlanta. However, I will also speak in support of John Shuck and repeat the claim that "God alone is Lord of the conscience".<BR/><BR/>(BTW, sorry John for speaking about you in the third person. Cat's mother?)<BR/><BR/>Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda, secundu Verbum Dei!Flycandlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08599392875619723740noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-28952620210053370552007-09-01T17:45:00.000-07:002007-09-01T17:45:00.000-07:00Very nice. There is nothing like sincere words sp...Very nice. There is nothing like sincere words spoken (written) by those who know you well... Kudos to Rev. Dr. Harrison.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03157072534800101223noreply@blogger.com