tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post8741853081800224061..comments2024-02-19T04:50:58.170-08:00Comments on Shuck and Jive: Presbyterians, Change, and EaarthJohn Shuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-81915534170298871152010-05-16T14:16:26.838-07:002010-05-16T14:16:26.838-07:00"Conservative churches are growing; we are bu..."Conservative churches are growing; we are busy shifting deck chairs on the Titanic. We get what we deserve."<br /><br />And plenty are not. While plenty of liberal churches are growing, and some are not.<br /><br />Stushie's view, which I've seen him elucidate elsewhere that growth and butts-in-seats is a sign of right theology and/or God's favor is a remarkable viewpoint coming from someone who claims to be Presbyterian.<br /><br />Anyone who mistakes demographics for God's Will understands neither demographics nor God's Will.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16274395216929104919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-59858864123763294542010-05-16T11:35:48.976-07:002010-05-16T11:35:48.976-07:00"Conservative" I suppose means different..."Conservative" I suppose means different things to different people. <br /><br />If conservative means we should conserve the environment and Earth's resources, then count me in.<br /><br />But if conservative means:<br /><br />1) Gays are sinners<br />2) Christianity is the only "true" religion<br />3) Superstition is more trustworthy than science<br />4) Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and Pat Robertson tell the truth<br /><br />then no thanks. I don't care if the whole planet becomes "conservative." I am not interested. <br /><br />I don't think we are getting what we deserve or that "God" is cleaning house. I think this loss is painful and sad for those losing their jobs. They have done good work. They have livelihoods to support. <br /><br />I do think that like many things institutional religion is going through major change. The changes we are facing are much larger than church institutions. <br /><br />What concerns me is that if we are facing economic volatility, crises of food, and so forth, precisely at the time that we will need stable institutions, will these institutions be too weak and discouraged to respond? <br /><br />I think that the denominational leaders see this. Staff will not be able to do it for us, whether that "it" is curriculum, peace and justice advocacy, youth training, whatever. It will function more like a catalyst to help local ministries connect. <br /><br />I wonder if this trend will be the same for civilization. Centralized government, economics, energy, 3,000 mile Caesar salads, are a thing of the past. We will need to figure out how to be very, very local.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-54135501788383887902010-05-16T06:34:12.352-07:002010-05-16T06:34:12.352-07:00Conservative churches are growing; we are busy shi...Conservative churches are growing; we are busy shifting deck chairs on the Titanic. We get what we deserve.Stushiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10693178228505134028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-35987859087591422332010-05-16T05:51:09.511-07:002010-05-16T05:51:09.511-07:00Tim, If "Finances are often God's way of ...Tim, If "Finances are often God's way of weeding, freeing us of bureaucratic overload and frivolous endeavors" why doesn't God get busy on the "fundies." In the state where I live they and their houses of worship are taking over. I was recently at a track meet at one of their high schools on the "campus" of their church (my kids call it 'Six Flags over Jesus'). This place rivels many small colleges. You must sign a pleadge to enter their senior high program that "Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior" and be baptised by immersion. If you happened to be christened as a baby this would require rebaptism. My point is, even in the economic downturn, churches like these are not only surviving, they are thriving. I know it rains equally on the just and the unjust but my conclusion is more along the lines of "God, where the h---- are you"local MDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01362866372142696669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-14210180970433902642010-05-16T04:27:38.150-07:002010-05-16T04:27:38.150-07:00John, as a fairly recent immigrant to the PCUSA, t...John, as a fairly recent immigrant to the PCUSA, this news concerns me. Then again, as a hot-footed emigré from the fiscally frank Fundie set, I'm reminded to relax. The Church, under any brand, is an organism, a hardy one that has outlasted every government on record. Its needs will be met, even when its wants run aground. <br /><br />Finances are often God's way of weeding, freeing us of bureaucratic overload and frivolous endeavors. I think you're right, based on what I've witnessed in the past. The current crisis will impact denominations by reigniting urgency to succeed locally, getting us as close as we're likely to go to the original "home church" model. Hierarchies will collapse, a good thing in my opinion, as it will refocus our attention to what's needs doing around us. (Pleasing the Big Boys seldom pleases God.) And in the end, congregations who are committed to their local communities will flourish.<br /><br />We must remember hard times raise hard questions that call for real answers. If we as the Church don't have them or know how to offer them to people, our problems are bigger than what's in the bank.Timhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01271248501086241494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-25229490928395094022010-05-15T04:40:20.680-07:002010-05-15T04:40:20.680-07:00I believe it is going to get far worse for the PCU...I believe it is going to get far worse for the PCUSA quickly. There are a great many ways in which we have disconnected and become irrelevant to American postmodern culture. And we're not just talking about an ideological chasm, but also an organizational one. <br /><br />I suspect the day of the paid pastor is coming to an end. I suspect the day of organized fellowship as a primary event is coming to an end. <br /><br />If the PCUSA is to "continue," I suspect we will have to find new ways to exist outside of a denominational structure. What we end up with may look more like what we see with online forums and other social networking media: people coming together for a common purpose, not because of an externally validated membership, but because they can relate to each other on the inside and share a common quest.irreverancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11427620805535244002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-47083120207264690312010-05-14T11:55:06.143-07:002010-05-14T11:55:06.143-07:00@Sea It isn't as if we are learning. Kerry a...@Sea It isn't as if we are learning. Kerry and Lieberman are promoting a "green" bill now that would open off shore drilling along the Atlantic. Eventually, they will stop this particular leak, but already it is likely larger than the one at Valdez.<br /><br />@RevDr. We have more clergy than positions for them while seminaries need more and more students to stay open. Not a good balance.John Shuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00798753206614838161noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-5081159697166399092010-05-14T11:47:36.960-07:002010-05-14T11:47:36.960-07:00I don't want anyone to lose their job but I do...I don't want anyone to lose their job but I do feel that we have way too many employees on that level. Churches everywhere are cutting back, I feel especially bad for those entering seminary or who are looking for a first call. You better have a backup plan.Mrs. Reverend Doctorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17850938501003683008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30648257.post-56105707678100189052010-05-14T11:43:55.172-07:002010-05-14T11:43:55.172-07:00Hi John ...
For the first time in my life, I do n...Hi John ...<br /><br />For the first time in my life, I do not have a good feeling about the outcome of this disaster in the Gulf. Up until now (even while walking up Capitol Hill while the Pentagon was burning in the background on 9/11) I have had an unshakable confidence in humanity's ability to figure out and fix the messes we have made.<br /><br />If this oil is not stopped and cleaned up, and gets into the Gulf stream and heads up the East Coast and then for England and the 7 seas -- which is more and more likely -- life as we have known it on this Planet is over.<br /><br />I'm not sure I'm ready for this.Sea Raven, D.Min.https://www.blogger.com/profile/11437086460582996056noreply@blogger.com