Shuck and Jive

Monday, November 19, 2007

Another One Bites the Dust

The First Presbyterian Church of Quincy, IL was dismissed this past week to the EPC. The congregation got a pretty good deal. They paid the presbytery 10% of the property's value and are now more holy and pure than ever.

The Quincy Herald Whig (bring back the Whigs!) reported the minister's reason for leaving the PCUSA:

Bakker said certain positions taken or being considered by "liberal/progressive" elements within the PCUSA body over a period of time had moved the majority of First Presbyterian members to seek affiliation with the Evangelical Presbyterian denomination.

The two specific areas that Bakker labeled as "problematic" concerned PCUSA's stance on abortion and the ordination of self-avowed, practicing homosexuals.

"These are contrary to the teachings of the holy scripture," Bakker said.

Nope it is not about THE GAY!

If you are interested in keeping track of the schismatics, this schismatic has a website justifying and recording all the news about them.

Of course, the schismatic, homophobic "news" organization, the Layman, cheers them on.

I do miss the spoof of the Layman in the late-90s, called The Presbyterian Gayman.

They even had a cool logo.


  1. Hi John,

    I would love to put your daughter in touch with Hailee, the NNPCW student at the University of Montana. I know your daughter finishes in December, but if she is interested in meeting Hailee, let me know. My email address is


  2. Thanks Noelle!

    BTW, Noelle works for a great organization, the National Network of Presbyterian College Women.

    This was the group the Layman was attacking in the late 90s which led to the spoof, the Presbyterian Gayman.

  3. On second thought, Noelle. I don't know if I want my daughter exposed to (gasp!) feminism.

    She might get uppity.

  4. Anyone want to take bets on how long it is until the EPC tries to kick out First Quincy because of their unbiblical stance on the ordination of women?

    I feel for the unnamed "minority of First Presbyterian members" who were NOT " seek affiliation with the EPC". Screw you, seems to be the general message from Rev. Bakker. Very Christlike, very nice.

  5. John,
    I would really like to make every attempt possible to try to understand what makes people think this way, and what makes them so homophobic. I believe that discrimination in any form in unacceptable in my book. I have never understood how I could be so accepted and honored and appreciated until it is revealed that I am gay. I have done more for humanity than a majority of those that preach how hell-bound homosexuals are. My partner and I just got finished putting together 16 Thanksgiving boxes for poor families so that they have the chance to share the special day with their families with good food. All of the time, effort, and funding for those comes from my pocket. And most of all, I try to keep my donations completely anonymous. I do not look for news publication or other "stories" about the great deal (I think it is so tacky when the news has a big story over some football player taking a turkey basket to a family's house and turns it into all about them...amazing, they make 5 million a year, and a $150 basket qualified them to sainthood). Anyway, my partner and I have been committed for over 8 years, and our relationship is more solid than 90% of the "straight" marriages out there today. I just wish I could get a better understanding of just how evil I am.....I guess I've been doing it wrong all of these years! Until then, I'll just be me.....(to be continued) :)

  6. I hear ya, Scott. My significant other is preparing to enter seminary (he fortunately belongs to the United Church of Canada, which has been ordaining openly gay clergy since the mid-80s AND THE SKY HAS NOT FALLEN).

    To answer your question, my gut feeling is that certain people need an "other" as a punching bag. Especially in a setting such as church, where the emphasis is on conquering sin, it is soooo much easier to have someone else's sin to pick on and avoid your own. It's even better if there's a sexual component to it, so you don't have to consider your own economic sins.

    Jack Rogers brilliantly illustrates in his latest book, Jesus, the Bible and Homosexuality: Explode the Myth, Heal the Church how a LOT of the current words used against LGBT Presbyterians is almost IDENTICAL to that used against women and African-Americans before them (the examples of the stereotype of the African man as some kind of sexual demon are pretty astonishing).

    My guess is that 50 years from now, the mainline church will wonder why we wasted so much damn time, money and effort on this silly issue, while the conservative splinters (EPC, OPC, PCA) bicker amongst themselves and find more and more and more reasons to split again and again.

  7. Thanks Scott and Fly,

    I am glad to get to know you via the web.

    I don't know why people have prejudices.

    But I do know that there are people who cater to those prejudices to gain some kind of power.

    Individual prejudices can slowly be overcome as people open their eyes. The real evil ones, the ones who take advantage of prejudice for personal and political gain are the ones who need be aggressively resisted.

    The power brokers in the right wing capitalize on fear and prejudice to win support again and again.

    My hunch is that all of you can come up with examples.

    Don't stop rattling the cage for justice my friends!

  8. I think prejudice served an evolutionary purpose. Ever wonder why there are no other competing races of humans?

    Humans are designed to fear and discriminate against others who are similar yet different from them. It's the small differences that matter. The way we talk, the way we walk, the color of our eyes and the shape of our noses, they all serve as markers, friend or foe designators.

    Homosexuals are a minority and always will be. They will always be viewed with suspicion. Its in our DNA. And from our DNA it has been transplanted into every institution there is. But if we are aware of the propensity and acknowledge it, we might be able to keep it at bay.

    Unless of course we sanctify it.

  9. I notice this in the politics of PFR recently. They seem to have made a complete 180 on leaving the PC(USA), almost as if someone realized that if all the conservatives leave the PC(USA) to join the EPC, then a conservative advocacy group in the PC(USA) becomes largely irrelevant (and loses its financial support).

    They've tasted power, they like it, and by gum they'll keep it, even if it means compromising their ideals just enough to keep their base riled up but in the PC(USA).